Is God Necessary for Morality? from The Veritas Forum on Vimeo
Is God Necessary for Morality? Part 1 of 2 from The Veritas Forum on Vimeo.
Is God Necessary for Morality? Part 2 of 2 from The Veritas Forum on Vimeo.
I've posted a link on Edwin Curley's lecture on God's character here. The real interesting thing to me is that Loftus says that William Lane Craig lost these debates against Shelly Kagan and Louise Antony. I'm really amazed. I don't see that at all. Kagan did not show that we know what morality is without God. I think Antony did better. At least she recognizes that somethings are wrong and somethings are right no matter what anyone of us thinks. I think where she loses it is trying to argue that God himself cannot be the standard of reality. She made the statement that she can't prove or explain where our morality comes from and it's not her burden of proof. I disagree. I also got the feeling that she thinks of God being worshiped because he commanded what was right. She also said that she came to think of repentance as being only given to god to avoid hell. As a Christian I want worship and praise God not because of what God does but because of who God is. I don't obey God because I fear hell but out of love and a desire to please the one who is worthy of my trust and obedience. That is not a part of traditional religion in general nor Roman Catholicism in particular and that is underscored in Antony's Roman Catholic upbringing as she underscored it. Neither she, nor Shelly nor Curley know what it is like to know God on personal one-on-one basis. If they did they would not wonder if it's okay to steal if God said so because they would know God would never ask them to steal. God would never ask you to murder. God would never ask you to cheat on your spouse. Yet these things are wrong because God has decreed they are wrong. He has the right because as Dr. Craig said he is the ultimate being there is nothing or no one God is accountable to. If there was, He would not be God and would not be worthy of worship.
As for Curley's lecture, I was unimpressed. Is God a dictator - doing anything He wants to do, how he wants to do it, when he wants to do it? Yes. Does it matter what you or I think about what He does or does not do? Nope. Does it bother me? Sometimes - when things don't go my way. However it gives me hope knowing that it goes the way He has decreed it and all things work together for my good. Roams 8:28-29. What hope does the Atheist have, especially one who has no objective foundation to build on? We can agree that it's wrong to steal, but why does it matter? Not everyone cares that it will hurt people. To convince them, you have to have a better argument than that.If Morality is not a gift from heaven then from where did it come? And if God did not give it to you how did you get it? The argument that we made it up as we go isn't going to fly either. We distort it and rationalize it as we go but that is about it.
Debunking Christianity: Is God Necessary for Morality? Hell NO!
I still don't get this. We observe moral codes that vary across different countries, regions, times, religions, sects, etc... etc...
ReplyDeleteGranted, you can always point to some higher platonic ideal, but it's simply your subjection version of a "platonic ideal of morality" and there's absolutly no consensus on what that ideal should be (across various countries, regions, times, religions, sects, etc... etc...)
PS: additionally, this post is evidence that people get out of debates what they want to get out of debates (I thought the opposite of you in regards to all of them, we both can't be right...).
Nope we can't. I'm interested as to what you thought about Antony's and Kagan's positions. She outright disagrees with everything you have said about moral codes! She rejects relative morality. Is she wrong? I think she and I agree on more than you agree with her. She just disagrees to the source of objective morality not the fact that there is a core source of moral codes and they are objectively true no matter what we think about them. Since you disagree then you must not have been rooting for anyone in that debate. WLC's arguments stood up because neither Kagan nor Antony would throw out objective morality but could not give a source for it. Saying it can't be God isn't an effective argument.
ReplyDeleteSaying it can't be God isn't an effective argument.
ReplyDeleteI isn't God. Human's share a common biology, and I would imagine a component of morality, however minor, comes from biology. Better?
Actually, that last comment was more of a throw away joke based on your comment "I have wondered do atheists think they win any debates?.
Clearly a lot of people think they do. And a lot don't. Debates debates are pretty much worthless for determining "who's right" and should be reserved for entertainment. There are probably a handful of people who think John Loftus "beat" Dinesh D'Souza in their debate because they like John and agree with his position. There was a vast majority of people however who agreed that D'Souza won, regardless how wrong D'Souza was.
Ryan, you said:
ReplyDeleteisn't God. Human's share a common biology, and I would imagine a component of morality, however minor, comes from biology. Better?
Nope, not better. You didn't answer my question. You disagree with Kagan and Antony as whether or not Morality is relative and objective. What makes them wrong and you right? They cannot give the answer you gave for the origin of Morality. How do you know you are right?
I agree that winning a debate doesn't make you right, but I'd be interested on how do you know most people agreed D'Souza won against the Loftus (I agree he did). However do you think that most people think WLC lost those debates against Kagan and Antony? How do you tell that.
Debates are not about finding "who's right" it's about watching two positions on the same subject and coming to your own conclusion.
Marcus said What makes them wrong and you right? The fact that no one has observed objective morality in practice would be my argument.
ReplyDeleteI read an article that cited the Loftus/D'Souza post-debate surveys. As for WLC, he loses every debate I've watched, but that's just me :) I'm pretty sure lot more people think he wins.
I want you to say it clearly. Kagan and Antony are wrong in your opinion. Correct? Also realized that they and I would disagree about objecticve morality never being observed. No matter where you go, sleeping with someone else' wife is wrong (as an example).
ReplyDeleteOh and thinking that William Lane Craig looses every debate...that is just you.
No matter where you go, sleeping with someone else' wife is wrong (as an example).
ReplyDeleteNot if you went to a swingers meet up. Not my thing, but hey, to each their own.
Nope still wrong.
ReplyDelete