The world didn't end last Saturday (obviously), but Harold Camping and his predictions are just a smokescreen, and everyone is missing the heart of the problem.
You mean that Camping being wrong and unrepentant doesn't mean the Bible is wrong? .I know...but one could hope.
Camping has now spoken. He now claims that Jesus did arrive 'spiritually' on the 21st, and that in his generous mercy, God has decided to spare us the 153 days of the tribulation, but that the world will still be ending on 21 October. This is no surprise. This is exactly what these crackpot prophets do: they're never right, but they are great at rationalizing.You mean that Camping being wrong and unrepentant doesn't mean the Bible is wrong? .I know...but one could hope.
And just where in the Bible did Camping get all of that? The Bible says no such thing.
His followers are busy readjusting. Here's a radio interview with one bible-thumper; the guy who threw away his life savings on subway signs was left wandering in Times Square, confused and disappointed. None of them has changed their beliefs about the biblical apocalypse, they're just fudging the dates.
The Family Radio website has been scrubbed clean of mentions of Judgment Day.
And what do I see from most people? A stern finger-wagging with biblical authority reaffirmed.
Biblical authority is affirmed because it is promised that false prophets will be shown for the frauds that they are. And notice how Camping does exactly opposite what the Bible says we should do.
First, why the profanity? Can't we make valid points without being vulgar? In Meyer's case here it is important to point out that we should care what Jesus said because when we find some one saying opposite and mutually exclusive claims - we know we have a false prophet.
- The entire myth of dispensationalism — that time is divided into distinct ages with discrete beginnings and ends, characterized by distinct bodies of knowledge granted us by divine will — is nonsense. These fairy tales of a rapture and tribulation and world destruction are entirely the invention of crank theologians elaborating on the ravings of the 19th century Irish priest, John Nelson Darby. It's no more sourced or historical or rational than the goddamn Book of Mormon.
- Christian eschatology is a vile and hateful message about their imaginary tyrant god who, once again, is scheduled to have a temper tantrum in which he kills almost everyone, snatches up their souls, and makes them suffer for eternity for being human. A few will be spared; their reward is an eternity of servility, but at least they get to know they're better than everyone else. And that's the real lesson here: it's all about elitism and the most extreme threats imaginable to anyone who does not support these self-appointed masters of dogma. Again, there's no reason to believe any of it, other than that people have absorbed the propaganda for the whole of their lifetime.
I sure would like to know who Meyer talks to. Not all Christians would agree with the eschatology he presents here. Easy to grab a straw man, knock it down (without proving it wrong), and then lump all Christians in it. NO ONE IS GOING TO HEAVEN BECAUSE THEY ARE BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE. No one who believes the Bible thinks that. Even Camping is not that dumb and he's got a lot of theological problems.
- The Christian bible is supposed to be the ultimate source of authority, and to many of the more extreme, the only source of authority. It's got 'bible codes' in it; it's a rich vein of numerological bullshit to be mined; it's vagued, confused, ambiguous, and contradictory, a refuse heap of tribal gobbledygook hallowed by nothing other than long ages of accumulation. Our minds try desperately to find pattern and meaning in what we observe around us, and the best source to trigger all kinds of lunatic pattern generating theories is a nearly totally incoherent mass of text with huge cultural signposts pointing at it and screaming that it is important.
It's like being told that a tangled, confusing clump of jungle, all bewildering with shadow and random shapes slashing across it, is the home of a fierce tiger that will kill you if you get close. Stare hard at it, and you can convince yourself that there is something dangerous lurking there, even if it contains no animal larger than a rabbit.
"Magic" has nothing to do with it. Again, pointing to Camping is really bad example of what Christians believe and think. If you read the Bible like he does no wonder you think that the Bible is useless. All you have to do is read it. Look at it in the same way you read anything from a historical, cultural, and plain context and you cannot get out of it what Meyer or Camping get out of the Bible. Meyer revealed he doesn't care What Jesus said,. Then how do you know Camping is wrong or anyone for that matter is wrong? Without a standard, you can't know. Harold Camping makes an awful standard.
It's the very same rot, the poison of religion that twists minds away from reality and fastens them on hellish bogeymen. They're demented fuckwits, every one, and the big lie rests right on the fundamental beliefs of supernaturalism and deities, not on the ephemera of one crank's bizarre interpretations.
And to the next person who quotes Matthew 24:36 at me: you're part of the problem, too.
Did Camping lie about what the Bible says? Yup. It's stupid and unscientific to throw the Bible under the proverbial bus based on his lie. Meyer already had the conclusion that the Bible was a lie before May 21 2011 and he is using Camping to validate that belief. The logical problem is that according to the Bible Camping is liar n and stands condemned. Meyer is standing with him also condemned. But if we repent of our sin and put our trust in Jesus Christ we will not be condemned with Camping.
Wrong, root and branch; wrong at every cell and molecule; wrong to the core : Pharyngula
Did Camping lie about what the Bible says? Yup.
ReplyDeleteAre you sure he lied? He seems genuine to me, just delusional. Like you. You (and Camping) can make the bible say whatever you want.
Funny. Since you show that you can't understand the Bible any better than Camping does. You most likely don't even know anything about what he says about the Bible. Even if you disagree with what it says, even you should be able to read it and tell me how I've said anything that it does not say.
ReplyDelete"Lying" has nothing to do with if you believe it or not. Does the Bible say what you say it says? Given the times I have discussed with you, you often say things that it does not say.
Your response is nonsense. People can be mistaken as opposed to be liars. The fact that there are +33,000 sects indicates that most christians have to be mistaken about something...
ReplyDeleteI'm really shocked at how much you don't know about what Camping teaches.
ReplyDeleteFirst,You say you know what the Bible says. Where does it agree with Camping? He says that the Bible guaranteed his May 21st 2011 date for a physical rapture. Where does the Bible does that? If it does not, then he lied.
Second, where did you get your data for +33,000 Christian sects? I want Book and page number.
Third, where did I say that they were lying. The majority of Christian denominations are lock step as long as they follow the Bible. Most of the differences are not doctrinal. Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, and many other agree way more than disagree. And most of the time the disagreements are not worth throwing one another away. Notice how all of them disagree with Camping?
The nonsense is yours. Disagreeing with Camping does not equate to disagreeing with everyone not in my denomination. I disagree with some of them too.
"World Christian Encyclopedia", vol 1, page 16.
ReplyDeleteFirst,You say you know what the Bible says. Where does it agree with Camping?
It doesn't. You seem to be getting confused. I never said he wasn't mistaken. I said I didn't think he was lying. You understand that a falsehood can be generated by two different means, right? A mistake or a lie. You seemed certain Camping was lying. I was just wondering why you were so certain about that.
Third, where did I say that they were lying.
Where did I say you were?
First, because Camping says something that the bible does not say and he says it does - although he admits that you only see it if you accept his assumptions and interpretations - then that is lie. The Bible does not say what he said it says. He won't even admit that he was mistaken about his his interpretations and calculations. I'm making a distinction and you are not. He lied about what the Bible says, but mistaken about his assumptions for his calculations.
ReplyDeleteSecond, Thanks for the reference. Now how do you know that they are all so mutually exclusive that "most" must be mistaken about something?
Third. You are right. You didn't say that I said any of them are lying. It's interesting that you would say all of them are "mistaken". I think it's your way of being "nice" to people you haven't talked to, yet most of the time you use the word "deluded" - much more offensive. I don't count all Christians from other churches as wrong, mistaken, or deluded. Some People from my denomination are not the only people going to heaven. It's a case by case - person by person - situation in determining who is mistaken or lying.
He won't even admit that he was mistaken about his his interpretations and calculations.
ReplyDeleteYes, that is hilarious and a little sad.
He lied about what the Bible says...
I haven't seen this. Reference?
Now how do you know that they are all so mutually exclusive that "most" must be mistaken about something?
Good point, I don't know if the Filipino Aglipayan sect has theological disagreements with the Southern Baptist sect. I do know the Southern Baptist sect has theological disagreements with the General Baptists, Primitive Baptists, Calvinistic Baptists, Old Regulars, Two Seed in Spirit Predestinarian Baptists, Seventh Day Baptists and independents. I also know as an Arminian, you think Catholics and Calvinist are mistaken about something. They think you are mistaken about something. I'm not saying these are "salvation issues", but I am saying you must admit, if people disagree about something, one (or both) of them is mistaken about that something, no? And it doesn't mean (necessarily) the mistaken party is lying.
It's interesting that you would say all of them are "mistaken".
Because we are talking about interpretation. They are all just as deluded as you.
Look at these resources to see what Camping Lied about what the Bible says. He said that the Bible said that the Rapture would happen May 21st and if you don't believe the May 21st date you will not be raptured.
ReplyDeleteRapture Fail
Iron Sharpens Iron: Harold Camping Debates Dr. James White
Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: NPR Picks up on Harold Camping
You said:
Good point, I don't know if the Filipino Aglipayan sect has theological disagreements with the Southern Baptist sect. I do know the Southern Baptist sect has theological disagreements with the General Baptists, Primitive Baptists, Calvinistic Baptists, Old Regulars, Two Seed in Spirit Predestinarian Baptists, Seventh Day Baptists and independents. I also know as an Arminian, you think Catholics and Calvinist are mistaken about something. They think you are mistaken about something. I'm not saying these are "salvation issues", but I am saying you must admit, if people disagree about something, one (or both) of them is mistaken about that something, no? And it doesn't mean (necessarily) the mistaken party is lying.
"Salvation issues" are what matters. As long as we agree on those I have no reason to think that any of them are unpleasing to God. However, Camping disagrees with all of us on "salvation issues".
How do you know you are not the one who is deluded? How do you you know you are not suppressing the knowledge of God that you?