Christian Apologetics - Life and Doctrine: Trinity : A Consideration of Anti-Trinitarian Views, part 2 of 2

Image via Wikipedia

Here is Mariano's second part of his miniseries stating discussing objections to the Trinity. Here is the introduction.

Having concluded a consideration of various biblical statements which demonstrate that God is a Triune being, a Trinity, as each member of the Trinity is identified by likewise attributes, each is a person, each is co-equal and co-eternal let us now consider various anti-Trinitarian views.

Part 1: Some Jewish Views and Mormonism
Part 2: Jehovah’s Witnesses and Christian Science and Early Church Fathers

Christian Apologetics - Life and Doctrine: Trinity : A Consideration of Anti-Trinitarian Views, part 2 of 2

Silencing Atheists on Twitter

Image via CrunchBase

Well it has been an interesting couple of days. I have been finding myself discussing the veracity of the Bible on Twitter. Some of the more vocal....disagreement has come from one going by the moniker "Golmer". He tried to carpet bomb me with a bunch of questions designed to show the Bible does not make sense. I promised to respond to each of them. Many of them are raised in Dan Barker's Bible Quiz which is answered and refuted on the Tekton website at Answer Key: Dan Barker's "Bible Quiz"

Golmer:

@mmcelhaney No, I'm denying the veracity of the bible because it is full of archaic, obviously ignorant crap.

Let us see if he has anything to back up his conclusion,

Golmer:

@mmcelhaney You mean you have a GOOD answer for why Genesis (even in summary) gets the order of "creation" wrong?

Of course. Genesis chapter one is a narration of the events as they happened from the vantage of a person who was in the earth's atmosphere.

 Golmer:

@mmcelhaney Do you have a GOOD answer for why the inspired word allows for slavery and debasing of women?

I am a black man -  a descendant of slaves in the United States. Having studied the history of Slavery in this country and comparing it with ancient Israel there is no comparison. Slavery in ancient Israel was important economically and no one was enslaved because of their skin color and were not looked at as less than human. Every 70 years slaves were supposed to be freed unless they wanted to stay. And neither in the New Testament nor in the Old was it okay for  slave holders to mistreat their slaves. I wrote more about this at Dwindling In Unbelief: Collision: Are Douglas Wilson's beliefs good for the world? Part 1


As for hatred towards' women, I wrote a very lengthy response quite a few weeks ago.
An "Evil" of Christianity

Golmer:

 @mmcelhaney Why, after creation, does God need to rest?

Where does the Bible say that God needed to rest?. It only says that he did. 

² By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested  from all his work. Geneis 2:2

 Golmer:

@mmcelhaney Why, according to Genesis, were the sun and moon even "placed" in the sky?

  ¹⁴ And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, ¹⁵ and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. ¹⁶ God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. ¹⁷ God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, ¹⁸ to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. ¹⁹ And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.Genesis 1: 14-19

 Golmer:

@mmcelhaney What kind of food did God eat? Especially if he didn't have a "man like" physical body?

I'll save this one for the inevitable sequel I have to write because I don't get the question

Golmer:

@mmcelhaney Just how much incest is there in the bible anyway? Why is it seemingly okay, or at the very least "normal" in context?

 When is incest okay? When u are trying to repopulate the earth! Why is it a bad idea now? The gene pool is now large enough that close genetic pairings are not only no longer needed but its dangerous!  Even if you reject the Bible you have to agree that species grow and adapted characteristics are passed on because close relatives get together and those traits are passed to the next generation. IF evolution were true, I'd gather that this would be important.

 Golmer:

@mmcelhaney Why is the bible replete with ancient PAGAN numerology (7, 40, 40,000, 9, etc.?) Astrology part of God's plan?

So he wants to know why numbers like 7, 40, 40 thousand, 9 and others like 3 show up all the time. 2 shows up a lot too. I'm not sure if I'd call it pagan. But I think it is because God is a god of numbers. Mathematics is important. It is His language. Why do factors of pi, 2, 3, and i show up in almost every mathematical equation used to describe reality? It's proof of design and how if the constants in those equations were any different we would not be here to discuss it.Answer that.one and I think you will be able to answer why there are all kinds of the same numbers everywhere in the Bible.

Golmer:

@mmcelhaney Just how many different contradictory orders of events to creation are there in Genesis?

Genesis 1 gives the overview over the entire 6 days of creation. Chapter 2 gives further details of what happened on day 6. They do not conflict. It's up to Golmer or anyone else who agrees with his assertion that the order of events in Genesis conflicts. Burden of proof is on him to show that they do conflict.

Golmer:
@mmcelhaney Just how many gods are there, according to the bible?

For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited— he says: "I am the LORD, and there is no other. Isaiah 45:18

Golmer:
@mmcelhaney What is God's deal with not being able to deal with the element Iron?

Judges 1:19

"And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." Skeptics say: "Some omnipotent God! He couldn't even drive out people with iron chariots!" What's the problem here? This was the same God that the Bible says parted the Red Sea, brought Ten Plagues on Egypt, and created everything. Is it really plausible to suggest that some later Biblical writer is now going to say that this same God was limited because a couple of pagans had some iron chariots? Of course not! Obviously, something else is meant here - that the "he" in question is Judah, not God, and "the Lord was with Judah" - i.e., Judah had good tidings - inasmuch as He gave them success in the mountains, but NOT enough to take on iron chariots. The Judges writer is assuring the reader that in spite of Judah's failure in the valley, the Lord was with them. (For a comparison to Joshua 17:18, see here; for why Judah did not succeed, in accord with provisos laid out in the contract of Deuteronomy, see here.) source

Golmer:

@mmcelhaney Whom, besides Adam and Eve, was brought wholesale into existence by God without parents?

 Well, he could not be talking about  Jesus because He had Mary for a mother. Therefore he must be referring to Melchizedek.For look at Hebrew 7:1-4

 ¹This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, ²and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace." ³Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.

The passage is not saying that he had no parents it is pointing out that the man was a priest of God and like Jesus was not from the tribe priests were supposed to come through. Jesus is in the Melchizedek order of priests not the levitical priesthood.

 Golmer:

@mmcelhaney What does Dear ol' God think of HUMAN sacrifice?

God hates human sacrifice and never commanded anyone to go through with it. I know you may be referring to Isaac and Abraham but God stopped that. Or you may be referring to Jephthah in Judges 13. If  you look it up you will see that God never told Jephthah to make that stupid vow, but Jephthah still had to follow through because he made a promise and the whole society was looking at him.  That's why it pays to keep your mouth shut. Also recall that for human sacrifice was why all those Canaanite nations were destroyed.

 Golmer:

@mmcelhaney Which are the REAL 12 tribes of Israel? Which are the REAL "10" Commandments? Are there Ten?

According to Genesis,  Jacob had 12 sons and each son founded a tribe. Joseph counts twice because he had 2 sons and each one founded a tribe. Therefore 13. There are 613 commandments in the Torah. And if you break one of them you have broken all of them.

Golmer:

@mmcelhaney Using just a bit of deductive reasoning, and the biblical description, what ACTUALLY destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? (not God) 

Are there natuaral explantions for the destruction? I think it was a meteor storm from the way it was described. There is no way to explain something that large happening at that paticular time under those circumstances. How do you explain it without realizing that God intervened in history.

So did Golmer really offer proof the Bible is in error. Nope. And none of his ideas or questions are original. Pray for him, he can't help it,.

Dr Kent Hovind debates Dr Michael Shermer

Image via Wikipedia

I enjoyed this debate. Is interesting. I don't agree with Kent Hovind on everything...especially the dragons stuff. But I think he answered Shermer pretty well. I lost all respect for Shermer when he said unicorns are in the Bible. That's an argument you use when you are desperate and don't have anything to stand on. IF he truly thinks that the Bible is trying to say that unicorns exist he not only misses the point of the passage but he also misses the fact that no modern English translations even have the word unicorn in them  because there are better ways to translate the Hebrew word. While I think Hovind makes mistakes in his Biblical interpretation, he is way more spot on than. Shermer.Looking over my blog I realize that Shermer does not come up often. My friend Mariano has a lot on Shermer if you want more information at his blog Atheism is Dead.





Dr Kent Hovind debates Dr Michael Shermer

Brennon's Thoughts: Parables and Penal Substitution

Image via Wikipedia

I really enjoyed Brennon's post defending why Jesus' parables do not disprove the doctrine of Penal Substitution. The debt of sin must be paid. In the old covenant, why was there a blood sacrifice? The principle was substitution - life for life. It is clear that as sinners our lives are forfeit. The question is whose blood do you want to pay for your sin: you or Jesus. Please read Brennon's article it is really important.

Brennon's Thoughts: Parables and Penal Substitution

What Hollywood Believes: William Shatner

Image via Wikipedia

Once in an interview William Shatner was asked "Is there a God?" Shatner replied "There is, but we don't know where. Or Who. And, indeed, why."

I hate to disagree, but I think it's a cop out answer. Many times I think people say such a thing because they don't wanna say "I don't know." and want to appear humble or spiritual instead of just coming right out and deal with the question of all questions.I would answer Shatner's questions pretty easily. He says that there is a God but we can't know Him.

God revealed Himself to humanity and the Bible is the record of that revelation spanning 40 authors, 1500 years and three continents.

Where? Everywhere! God is omnipresent and exists simultaneously everywhere and everywhen simultaneously.

Who? YHWH - THE LORD - The I AM THAT I AM - He that sustains Himself with Himself

Why? For His Glory and good pleasure. It's God's reality.

Creationist Kent Hovind Reveals The Truth About Dinosaurs And Evolution!

Image via Wikipedia

I came across this video lecture from Google. It's Kent Hovind giving a lecture entitled Dinosaurs and the Bible. It's interesting. He is a young earth creationist and so he and I don't see eye-to-eye on everything. I think that he does a good job in citing evidence and providing information but I don't think all of his conclusions are correct nor do I think that his presuppositions and theories are totally tenable. For example he suggests that Noah brought large animals on the Ark as babies...that's not heresy but I don't see any way to prove it. I also think he relies too heavily on the genealogies given in Genesis to establish his timeline for the creation of the world.

I looked him up on Wikipedia and have found that he is in prison for tax problems. It seems to me that he was sincere in trying to show people that the Bible is true although he's made some mistakes. I've been fortunate enough to find some decent debates Hovind has had with atheists, scientists, and old-earth creationists and I will be posting them in the future. I do agree with Hovind that the Bible is true, but he seems willing to make assertions that go beyond the text.




Creationist Kent Hovind Reveals The Truth About Dinosaurs And Evolution!

Today on the DL: Post-Mortem on Last Week's Debates

Yesterday, Dr. James White on his web cast reviewed his debates last week with Michael Brown and Tim Staples. He went through some of the comments and reactions gleaned from the forum on the Catholic Answers web site. I am amazed! I mean it was like people did not listen to the debate. White also did a great job in discussing how the teachings on purgatory have changed in the past 500 years! Today, he posted a video showing him in studio doing yesterdays program.

Then White turned his attention the the debate with Michawel Brown by interacting with some of his statements in his Thursday program, Line of Fire. Listen to White's web cast at the link below

Today on the DL: Post-Mortem on Last Week's Debates

Follow the following link to hear Brown program on Calvinism: Further Reflections on Calvinism

I'm looking forward to Michael Brown and James White discussing Calvinism in full debate.

Atheism is Dead: “GOD IS DEAD” and I Don’t Feel So Good Myself

Mariano is recommending a book that I think is going to be worth reading.

“GOD IS DEAD” and I Don’t Feel So Good Myself Theological Engagements with the New Atheism is the title of a book edited by Andrew David, Christopher, J. Keller and Jon Stanley

Check out Mariano's post for more information. It's about various Christians responding to atheism,

Atheism is Dead: “GOD IS DEAD” and I Don’t Feel So Good Myself

Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Luther Condemned the Word "Trinity"?

Many times Roman Catholics try to find things to demonize Martin Luther. In this recent blog post, James Swan, examines the accusation the Martin Luther denied the Trinity. Swan does a good job of showing that there is no basis for this accusation. Martin Luther was not perfect, but he can't be accused of denying the Trinity either. Read Swan's post at the link below.

Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Luther Condemned the Word "Trinity"?

Atheism is Dead: ExChristian.Net Further Discredits Itself

On his blog Atheism is Dead, Mariano has brought an article posted on ExChristian.Net to attention. Bible Band-aide announces that a group of Christians are sending audio Bible to Haiti, in Haitian Creole and accuses them of proselytizing poor desperate people instead of giving them food, clothes, and basic life necessities. The article is further insulting in that it alleges that the group thinks of Haiti in the same negative terms as Pat Roberston - that the Haitians are a bunch of sinners who need saving - deserving of God's wrath.

Why is this insulting? Simple. Ayhwh who wrote this post on ExChristian.Net obviously knows less about Haiti (which is aaying something) than Roberston. Many people in Haiti are Christians - mostly catholic! My denomination alone has 100 churches in that nation. Ayhwh wrote:

How in the world does Wilke come to the conclusion that there is an “immediate need” for another 3,000 of his groups audio bibles. Buildings are collapsing, people really do need food and water, there are thousands and thousands dead and dying, but what they really need is an audio bible. It is beyond ridiculous.

"We want to equip short-term groups, disaster relief teams, church teams and other ministries with the Word of God in a format the people can use," Wilkes says in a statement on the group's website.”

Because that is what people going down in disaster relief teams should really be concerning themselves with. This shows the complete and utter insensitivity of these people. With over 100,000 people sleeping on the streets, they are attempting to proselytize.

This is assuming that people of Haiti do not know God already. The bible is not just for joining Christianity. For the Christian the bible is a manual and a joy and gift. It can be comforting. It is just as needed as food, clothes, water, and shelter. You - Aywh, an apostate, can't understand that. The have physical and spiritual needs. As Christians, the Haitian people would understand Jesus' words

Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'" - Matthew 4:4

And in Haitian Creole

Jezi reponn li: Men sa ki ekri: Moun pa kapab viv ak manje ase. Yo bezwen tout pawòl ki soti nan bouch Bondye tou.

Aywh started his "post" writing:

What do you do when praying for the Haitian disaster just does not seem to be enough? When you feel like you should do something more concrete to help? No, don’t send aid money . . . that would be just stupid. You should send solar powered audio Bibles called Proclaimers.

I'd like this writer to ask the people who are living with the results of this disaster if they still want prayer or if prayer works? I've got a huge stake in this. My wife is Haitian. She was born in Port-au-Prince. My children are half Haitian. She still has many relatives there including her father! You can't tell me prayer does nothing because when we heard about the quake we went to praying and everyone my wife knows who still lives in Haiti is still alive! My father -in-law lost his home - it collapsed. Unfortunately, he was in it at the time. Try to tell him that there is no God or that prayer doesn't do anything. He says that he saw a light and heard a voice telling him how to get he and his wife out safely. What about the people being pulled out of the wreckages thanking God and praising him? And there are more miracles than that!






Just to be clear, Aywh also wrote:

If Jesus could bring any sort of help to these people, then there would have been no earthquake in the first place. It just goes to show you that Christians don’t really care about the victims and what they have gone through. The only thing they care about is proselytizing. The virus must be past on, and who better to infect than the weak?

The people of Haiti that I have heard interviewed and allowed to speak out don't see their plight the way you or Roberston see it. That is so very illogical. Arguing that if God was good or even exist there would be no earthquake is no argument at all. I'm not saying that I know why this has happened or even what the purpose. But if the people who are suffering and dealing with this aren't blaming God why should you? By the way I would suggest heeding the words of Jesus Christ!

Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." Luke 13: 1-5

Atheism is Dead: ExChristian.Net Further Discredits Itself

Apologetics 315: Book Review: If There's A God, Why Are There Atheists? by R.C. Sproul

Brian has posted an excellent book review of the latest edition of one of RC Sprouls's work. Here is an excerpt from Brian's article.

If There’s A God, Why Are There Atheists? by R. C. Sproul was first published with the title, The Psychology of Atheism. The earlier title reflects the overall subject of Sproul's book, but the later title, If There’s A God, Why Are There Atheists?, reveals the question that the author is seeking to answer. This title is in response to Freud’s past psychological query: “If there is no God, why is there religion?” And so Sproul writes his book to show that psychological factors play a role regardless of the position that one takes on the matter.

I think that this is a book I will be trying to read soon! Read the whole review at the link below

Apologetics 315: Book Review: If There's A God, Why Are There Atheists? by R.C. Sproul

Response to Sam Harris on the Dangers of Religion

Image via Wikipedia

Here is an article in my series on Responding to Sam Harris on the "dangers" of Religion.




In this video, Harris is talking about how much (if not most or all) of the violence in the world can be traced back to people's competing ideas about God. I can agree with that assessment. Any time you base you ideas and life on something that is not true then you have a problem. I also agree that people do not confront the issues head on and will not criticize and evaluate the truth claims of other people's religions let alone their own. Harris seems to suggest the best solution is just to get rid of religion. I strongly disagree.

Why throw the Baby out with the bath water? If there is a true worldview shouldn't we adopt it and abandon all others? Shouldn't each religion be evaluated and critiqued to see if any of them is true? I mean what if you reject all of them and missed the true one? Or what if you pick the wrong one? I think too many people just go through the motions and never really bother to think if what they believe is true. All of the examples that Harris cites have nothing to do with what I believe or with what the Bible says. I would suggest that the truth claims for each religion should be verified where it can be and if its not up to snuff, it should be rejected. I've done this, and it could be done over and over again in different levels of detail. And when you do this, you find that Biblical Christianity where the Bible is honestly, logically, and consistently interpreted in it's own context can pass this test. All it would take is one contradiction or falsehood for a religion to fail the test. For example if there had never been a nation called the Philistines, then we know the Bible is false, but we know that they did exist. that does not prove that Christianity is true, but it does mean more research is needed. Islam says that Jesus was not crucified and died, but the Bible says He was and did. They both can't be true. History however tells us that Jesus was crucified and he did die. Some scholars say that it the most well attested fact from the first century AD. Therefore under the rules I had set, I've got to reject Islam. and it goes on like this. God ahead and try it. You may find some of these other links useful.

What If I Am Wrong

YouTube - Bart Ehrman VS Atheist The Infidel Guy

Image via Wikipedia

Before I started writing this blog, I heard a clip of an interview of Bart Ehrman on the Infidel Guy podcast. Dr. White played it and responded to it because he thought it really shows Bart Erhman's thought processes and beliefs when he was faced with a person who is even more radical and atheistic than himself. Re call that Ehrman does not consider himself an atheist. He identifies himself as an agnostic - saying that there is not enough evidence to establish or deny that God exists. the interview becomes a debate over whether or not Jesus existed. Infidel Guy is shocked that although Ehrman does not believe the Bible is the word of God, he does recognize that there is enough historical evidence to say that Jesus did exist as a fact of history. This is awesome. Here we have a non-christian respected scholar that teaches that Jesus was a real person and that all "serious historians" agree and that we can say something about historical truth. Robert M Price's names was brandished as someone who is a scholar but does not believe in the existence of Jesus and Ehrman all but laughed at his work. Who knew that for all the different things I disagree with Bart Ehrman that there is somethings we do agree on.

I just found out that Dr. James White will be debating Robert M. Price in early May. Boy, is this one going to be good! You can listen to Dr. White interacting with the above clips at the following links:

Patrick Madrid, Bart Ehrman, and the Infidel Guy on the DL...oh My!
The 33,000 Protestant Denominations Lie Again, Plus Ehrman with the Infidel Guy

Dr. Claude Mariottini - Professor of Old Testament: The Election of Israel

Image via Wikipedia

Dr. Claude Mariottini has posted an excellent article about the Election of Israel from a from the point of view of the Old Testament. I agree with everything He wrote on it and my favorite thying i must quote is when he said:

The history of Israel’s relationship with God is the central reality of the Old Testament. The choice of Israel to be God’s people has a universal dimension. No other nation in the history of the world has influenced humanity more than Israel. Israel’s religious contribution to humanity is greater than any other nation, for it was to Israel that God introduced himself in the greatest act of unselfish love ever demonstrated to humanity. To comprehend Israel’s religious contribution to our understanding of God, one is compelled to understand the concept of God’s election of Israel as his special people.

Like it or lump it. It's true. I think that jealousy is the underlining reason for antisemitism. Their attitude is "Why can't I be special. Why can't I be elect?" The New Testament does not change what was laid in the Old Testament. When we, even gentiles, put our faith in what God has revealed - salvation through faith in Jesus Christ -  we join Israel in that promise to Abraham. Paul wrote in Galatians 3:6-9:

⁶Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." ⁷Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. ⁸The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." ⁹So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. 

As far as God is concerned, believers today are just a justified and righteous by faith as Abraham  was by his faith. Dr. Mariottini did an awesome job breaking down what the election of Israel means and how it was due to God's unmerited favor. Neither Abraham, nor his descendants, and most certainly not us did anything to deserve to be gifted by God. No way. Just like Israel was chosen out of many nations - some that we would consider were better than they - to become His people - God has chosen to save those who believe and pout their faith in Jesus and we don't deserve it. I'm going to leave aside the debate about if we were personally chosen to have faith or we chose to have faith and just say that it is by that faith in the promise that we become children of  Abraham - slave or free, Jew or Gentile alike.

 ⁴For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love ⁵he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— ⁶to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. ⁷In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace ⁸that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. ⁹And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, ¹⁰to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
 ¹¹In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, ¹²in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. ¹³And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, ¹⁴who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1:4-14

Much more could be said about how God took it upon himself to reveal Himself to us and we can take no credit, but for now I want end this with Ephesians

Dr. Claude Mariottini - Professor of Old Testament: The Election of Israel

Apologetics 315: Is Atheism Is Dead, Is God Alive? MP3 Audio by Ravi Zacharias

Apologetics 315 has a great  resource. It is a lecture by Ravi Zacharias on the question that if Atheism is false, does that mean that God truly exist? Take a listen.

Apologetics 315: Is Atheism Is Dead, Is God Alive? MP3 Audio by Ravi Zacharias

Regarding Brennon's Thoughts: More with Marcus

Image via Wikipedia

Brennon has been kind enough to respond to my post and continuing the discussion. I appreciate his time and and kindness in discussing these matters with me. I'm responding to his post in red font and leaving his in black. He was kind enough to italicize the text I wrote previously  that he is responding to.

Continuing in my discussion with Marcus, he responds to my contention that John 12:32 clearly says that Jesus will draw all to Himself: John 12:32 says "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” Jesus is not saying that all men - every single person is drawn to Jesus - all kinds of people are.This particular translations makes it clear - "all peoples". Brennon, you are definitely right that we do indeed agree that not everyone is drawn at the same intensity or even at the same time, but no one gets saved without that drawing.

The translation he used is one of my favorites, the NKJV. However, I think this translation falls short of capturing what this verse is saying. Most other translations say, "all men" and not "all peoples". In looking at the original Greek, you will see that that phrase is added in by the translators for clarity (as seen here). Thus, the verse would actually literally read "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself." Translating this to read this as a drawing of all kinds of people or something like that is showing a prior theological bent, because the Greek reading is just "all". You are correct, Marcus, that no one is saved without the drawing of Christ, but that is not what is being debated. We both agree on that.

Brennon, the fact that we agree on that no one can be saved unless they are drawn was brought up by me in the previous post because I wanted to be clear that I know you agree. I'm sorry if I made it sound like you did not know that. I recognize that you do. As for the meaning of John 12:32, I think the context of Jesus' words tells us the scope of who is going to be drawn when Jesus is lifted up. Let's examine verses 20-36

²⁰Now there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship at the Feast. ²¹They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, with a request. "Sir," they said, "we would like to see Jesus." ²²Philip went to tell Andrew; Andrew and Philip in turn told Jesus.
 ²³Jesus replied, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. ²⁴I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. ²⁵The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. ²⁶Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.
 ²⁷"Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. ²⁸Father, glorify your name!"
   Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it, and will glorify it again." ²⁹The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.
 ³⁰Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine. ³¹Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. ³²But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." ³³He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
 ³⁴The crowd spoke up, "We have heard from the Law that the Christ will remain forever, so how can you say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this 'Son of Man'?"
 ³⁵Then Jesus told them, "You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going. ³⁶Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may become sons of light." When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them.

We see the passage begins with Greeks seeking an audience with Jesus - people whom many Jews thought were outside of the promises of God. I think a real telling thing is that God spoke from heaven but not everyone heard a voice. Some only heard thunder. Jesus said that the voice was for "your benefit" and he could have only been addressing the people who heard a voice and not thunder. The people who heard the voice were being drawn and the voice was not for the benefit of those who did not hear it. It's at that point we get verse 32, therefore I can't see how we can conclude that Jesus is saying that every individual is being drawn.


We also agree that people frustates the desires of God to come to him. We don't want God. We don't look for Him. We never will if God does not initiate the relationship

Marcus, this isn't really the case. In Calvinism, God has chosen a select few to bestow His grace on. When He does this, this grace is irresistible, in that it is outside the capability of the will of man to resist this. Man cannot frustrate the purpose of God in drawing them irresistibly. This is what a major portion of this debate boils down to; is God's grace such that it can be resisted or not? We both agree that it is necessary. I have displayed clear passages of man resisting the Holy Spirit and frustrating the desire of God. This is because God allows this measure of freedom so He might have a genuine love relationship with His creatures.

When I said that people frustrate the desires of God to come to him, I was referring to everyone before they get the call and respond. Calvinism agrees with that. If I understand, you are saying that it is outside the capability  of the will of man to come to Jesus, but you disagree that the call is irresistible. The thing is that something must happen to allow us to come to Jesus if by default we are incapable of doing it on our own. I don't think proving that people resisting and frustrating the desire of God by not repenting disproves the "I" in TULIP - Irresistible Grace because in those situations the people have not had that grace applied to them and is in their unregenerate state.
 

Regarding Acts 13:46 - what else can an unregenerate man do but reject Jesus?

This is the point though. It's clear that Stephen recognized the work of the Holy Spirit in these people's lives. They were resisting the teaching and drawing of the Holy Spirit in the teachings of Stephen. Thus, the work of the Holy Spirit can be resisted by men.



All men are called to repentance and we who are saved were once one of them who refused to repent. What happens that causes us to stop resisting and surrender? It can't be our free will because, as you agree, we can't do it. We are unable. So how does it happen?

I admit that I don't read Greek, nor can I use the grammar well but I don't see any difference between the two definitions. I mean to put something in place or to arrange something really isn't different firom fixing or determining or appointing with regards to that which is being τάσσω.

Arminians believe that God must put in place the ability to believe in the gospel. He arranges circumstances for people to hear the gospel and respond. The work of the Holy Spirit on the heart is also arranging for a person to believe. This is all very similar to what the Calvinist believes except we contend that it is not an irresistible work. God allows a person to resist if they choose. If they cease resisting, He will complete the transformation, regenerating their heart. If we are to say that God "fixes" or "determines" a time for an individual to believe, then it is an irresistible and predetermined act and impossible to see where the responsibility of man lies.

This is exactly my point. We cannot come to God on our own until God places the ability in us - yet we are held responsible because as you agree, we are all hell bound by default. Therefore, it doesn't change man's responsibility if the the grace to repent is irresistible.  

I think scripture plainly gives complete credit four our accepting the call to repentance and our rejection as own fault. I don't see how they shut the door because the door was shut for them in the first place.

I'm not sure what you're saying here completely. As for the door shutting, Acts 13:46 says, "Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, 'It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.'" They rejected it. They judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. It's clear that the offer was open and genuine and able to be accepted by these people, but they thrust the gospel from themselves. It wasn't withheld by God, it was pushed away by men.



I would not say that Calvinism is saying that God withholds the grace from some and gives it to others because those who have not been regenerated hate God and does not want the grace in the first place. No one who wants the grace of God will ever be denied. But no one wants salvation without that grace in the first place. They have no other choice but to reject the gospel.

I also think that James White deserves more credit than what you have stated.

I will confess I'm not a big fan of James White, nor of Steve Gregg. I'm sure they're both brothers in the Lord, but I disagree with the tactics of the former and the latter I don't really know that much about.

I think you may look at Steve Gregg's debate with White and then tell me what tactics of White's you disagree with. I think he was fair and gracious. Brennon are you familiar with the work of George Bryson? Do you think he accurately represent your views?

You have articulated the salvation process as I would have about 10 years ago. What changed my mind was the realization that all people are hell bound as a default.

But Marcus, I agree that people are hell bound by default.

The fact that you agree is why I am so interested in talking to you. It was my understanding that Arminians did not agree with the fact that all people are hell bound by default. Does this mean that you agree with the "T" in TULIP - Total depravity of man? Not all who call themselves "Armininan" would agree. I don't remember who it was but in a debate he said that no one is so dead in sin that they can't accept the gospel of their own free will.

It's not up in the air, until a person makes a decision - from the time you are born and accountable for your sins (we'll skip the babies, young children, and mientally handicapped for now) you, me, all people deserve hell. And the understanding that no one can be saved unless they are drawn

This isn't a point of disagreement between us. We agree here.







This is why our interaction interest me so much, Brennon, because people, claiming to be Arminians, have rejected this point. These are the people with whom James White often finds himself in opposition. And I understand that we agree..
 
If I understand you, you are saying that God tweaks a person just enough so that they can make a free decision.

Then you haven't understood me Marcus. I have tried to make crystal clear that the grace of God is completely necessary in every aspect of salvation. It is God alone who works on our heart, drawing and calling us for salvation. It is God's work alone that saves. Our only command is to stop resisting and put our faith in Jesus for our salvation.

I'm confused I thought I stated the same thing you said about your viewpoint. How is it different?

As Arminius writes:

In reference to Divine Grace, I believe, 1. It is a gratuitous affection by which God is kindly affected towards a miserable sinner, and according to which he, in the first place, gives his Son, "that whosoever believers in him might have eternal life," and, afterwards, he justifies him in Christ Jesus and for his sake, and adopts him into the right of sons, unto salvation. 2. It is an infusion (both into the human understanding and into the will and affections,) of all those gifts of the Holy Spirit which appertain to the regeneration and renewing of man -- such as faith, hope, charity, &c.; for, without these gracious gifts, man is not sufficient to think, will, or do any thing that is good. 3. It is that perpetual assistance and continued aid of the Holy Spirit, according to which He acts upon and excites to good the man who has been already renewed, by infusing into him salutary cogitations, and by inspiring him with good desires, that he may thus actually will whatever is good; and according to which God may then will and work together with man, that man may perform whatever he wills.

In this manner, I ascribe to grace the commencement, the continuance and the consummation of all good, and to such an extent do I carry its influence, that a man, though already regenerate, can neither conceive, will, nor do any good at all, nor resist any evil temptation, without this preventing and exciting, this following and co-operating grace.¹(emphasis mine)

Thanks for quoting Arminius directly. I largely agree with the statement except I'm wondering about this part:

It is that perpetual assistance and continued aid of the Holy Spirit, according to which He acts upon and excites to good the man who has been already renewed,

That sounds like he is saying that the Holy Spirit is acting on one who has been renewed so that he/she can do good. It seems like he recognized that by default no one is good. However the quote does not answer the question: How is it that people miss Jesus. We agree that we only find Jesus through the work of the Holy Spirit. But this quote does not deal with those who miss it.

He also said:

"Concerning grace and free will, this is what I teach according to the Scriptures and orthodox consent: Free will is unable to begin or to perfect any true and spiritual good, without grace. . .I confess that the mind of a natural and carnal man is obscure and dark, that his affections are corrupt and inordinate, that his will is stubborn and disobedient, and that the man himself is dead in sins. And I add to this -- that teacher obtains my highest approbation who ascribes as much as possible to divine grace, provided he so pleads the cause of grace, as not to inflict an injury on the justice of God, and not to take away the free will to that which is evil.²

I agree with that completely. Man is never able in his natural state to do any true spiritual good. This is why God is the one who seeks us. It's not just a "nudge," Marcus. He is imploring us to come to Him.

By "nudge", I meant that God has to put the ability in us so that we can positively respond. I see by the quote that Arminius believed that our free will to choose God is important but without the ability given to us, we can't come. Imploring does not make any difference if we are unable to come...and you agree that by default, we can't come. I use the word, "nudge" to describe your view because I thought that you were saying God gives you the ability to believe but  the person must choose to believe or not to believe. What messes me up is the fact that all reject the work of the Holy Spirit by default. You have stated that God gives us the ability to choose to serve him, but I think you are also saying that he gives people who choose not believe the same ability to choose. Right?

However, if God has to and does nudge you just enough so that you can says yes (and you would not say yes otherwise) why doesn't he nudge everyone so that they say yes and no one has to go hell?

Because some resist this calling. He calls all but not all respond.

Brennon, can you give me a list of scriptures that believe shows that God is calling everyone? I mean we agree that all don't respond, but do all have the ability to respond? By default...no.

Okay. The problem is we know that by default no one has faith.

It's not a problem though, Marcus. I agree with you on this.

Great!

What is it that make a person say "Yes" after by definition they said "No,"?

In this question you're assuming that something must make us choose something. That is begging the question.

You agreed with me that something does make us choose because apart from God's grace we can't choose. No one gets to not choose.

Scripture says that they say "No" because it is the only choice they can make. (Romans 8:5-8; Hebrews 11:6)

That passage from Romans are dealing with man in his natural state. If God shows His grace to someone, they can exercise faith.

So are you saying that God does not show His grace to everyone?

Calvinism does not explain why the elect are chosen other than that God wanted to do

I didn't say it does. But in being chosen by God from eternity past, you are automatically better than the non-chosen pagan.

Sorry, I disagree. The Bible clearly says that it's not because we are better. 1 Corinthians 1: 25-27

²⁵For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
 ²⁶Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. ²⁷But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

No. Scripture says that it is God causing us to accept God

Actually scripture only affirms that God enables us to come to Him.

Where?

Matthew 11:27 does not say that Jesus chooses to reveal the Father to everyone either

Jesus says He chooses who to reveal the Father to, and then says "come to Me ALL you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." This is Jesus extending the gospel to anyone who will respond, not just a select few. This is widening the gospel call, not restricting it.

Jesus knows that not all can respond unless they are drawn by the Father. We also know that only those can come. Are you saying that God gives the ability to everyone? Where?

How can you say that God does not cause us to enter into union with Christ in that we can't go unless He enables us to do so?

Enabling someone to do something doesn't mean they will necessarily do it.

I agree but we are back to the question: Does God enable everyone?

I admire William Lane Craig (WLC) but I have to disagree with him on this, partly. He rejects that we are hostile to God prior to conversion.

He absolutely does not, Marcus. On page 46 of the third edition of Reasonable Faith, Craig writes, "Here the Holy Spirit's ministry is threefold: he convicts the unbeliever of his own sin, of God's righteousness, and of his condemnation before God...This is the way it has to be. For if it weren't for the work of the Holy Spirit, no one would ever become a Christian" (emphasis his).³ He goes on to affirm that natural man does not seek God in the next sentence, quoting from Romans. You can read the page online here.

I stand corrected. Thanks, Brennon. I misunderstood Dr. Craig. 

His theology does not address this problem. Your's attempts to but tries to hold on to libertarian free will.

I have the suspicion, Marcus, that you're taking someone's second hand word for this, as I have just shown that Craig does deal with this. His and my position are virtually identical on this point.

What happened was I misunderstood Craig's refutation of Calvinism. He places a lot of emphasis on human free will in my opinion.

The truth is if it's going to keep my butt out of hell, I'll be God's puppet but I think it's way more complicated then that

The problem that arises from this kind of determinism is God as the author of sin.

I disagree. God is not the author of sin. But you have to admit that He allowed sin to become actualized and He didn't have to. Our sins are own faults and we are held accountable outside of Christ. Brennon, do you believe that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross covers those who reject Christ?

Um, but that is what Paul wrote.

No, Paul did not write God chose us to be in Christ. He wrote that He chose us in Christ.

I don't really understand the distinction you are making because no one is in Christ unless they are chosen. God has to give you the ability. I'd like to get some more scripture from you to understand if you believe that God gives the same ability, in equal measure, to everyone?

Sorry this response took so long. I have been busy lately. God bless you, brother.

Thanks for response! I really appreciate it! I'm glad God saved you and that you are going to heaven and deepening your relationship with the One who made us all. I look forward to more interaction on this!


Brennon's Thoughts: More with Marcus