Face Palm Quote of the Day #6 - Debunking Christianity: Quote of the Day, by Bob

I was going to let this one go, but this one so silly I had to comment. deserves FacePalm in triplicate. John Loftus quoted another person on his on his blog: whom he obviously agrees with.

What evidence would I accept for the claim that god exists? That's easy. All he would have to do is show up, once, -or- he could supernaturally change the way my brain works so that I no longer need evidence and am willing to accept as fact, wild claims that are based on ancient religious documents.

At least Loftus and Bob are honest. There is no evidence good enough to make a unbeliever give up his/her unbelief without direct intervention from God. However it's not because God changes you so that you don't need evidence to believe, God frees your mind so that you can accept the evidence that we do have instead of looking for loop holes for wiggle room so that one does not have to believe. That is why Loftus' comment makes sense - there is no evidence that will turn a man or woman to God without direct intervention from God. Consider the following passage:

⁵Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. ⁶The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; ⁷the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. ⁸Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. - Romans 8:5-8

The Bible clearly says that in our sinful state, we are unable to obey God and minds are hostile to God. Does that sound familiar? Look at the attitude of many atheists have towards the commands of God in Bible. Further another passages tells us even more

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. - John 3:19

Now look at the summary of John Loftus' logic:

Thanks to Mariano Grinbank for pointing out this graphic to me.  Very timely. I got this graphic a few minutes before I saw the quote from John Loftus' blog. What is adultery? A sin. Not just a sin but something that Loftus knew was wrong. Instead of taking the responsibility for his own actions, Lofuts says there is no God because God did not stop him or change him. Reminds me of Jesus' words about men loving their sin rather than the light they have been given. The evidence is plain. But if there is a God that means that we are accountable for the sins we commit.

I want to be clear. I'm not picking on Loftus. All of us are evil and deserve hell. This is the bottom line. Believers are saved because of God's grace and goodness not because of anything in us. I just wish people would be honest about their sin rather than just pretend that there is not enough evidence to believe in God and that he has spoken to us through the Bible.

Debunking Christianity: Quote of the Day, by Bob

Tabloid Prodigy » Blog Archive » Furious ex-girlfriends shave cheating ‘man-whore’s crotch!

I was amazed by this story. I think if that people take cheating far too lightly. Playing with someone's emotions and just using them is completely wrong. Two women torturing a man for doing cheating on
them? Well, two wrongs don't make a right but I think there should be legal consequences for cheating on a wife. Maybe not capital punishment...maybe too far for today's culture but if people understood just how terrible cheating is...maybe they would not be so quick to do it.

Tabloid Prodigy » Blog Archive » Furious ex-girlfriends shave cheating ‘man-whore’s crotch!

Banned Book Week: The 7 Most Ridiculous Reasons For Banning Books, 2009-2010 - ComicsAlliance | Comics culture, news, humor, commentary, and reviews

Comics Alliance has posted an article listing the 7 most silly reasons for banning books in the past year. I totally disagree. I don't think its right to censure books no matter how stupid they are or how much they suck. If you don't like something in the arts don't support it.

Banned Book Week: The 7 Most Ridiculous Reasons For Banning Books, 2009-2010 - ComicsAlliance | Comics culture, news, humor, commentary, and reviews

Free audio book: Jonathan Edwards, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" and other sermons | True Freethinker

Mariano has posted a link to a free audio book of Jonathon Edwards' sermons. Great stuff!
 
Free audio book: Jonathan Edwards, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" and other sermons | True Freethinker

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• Christian Biographies for Kids (joshharris.com)

Chance or Purpose

Lecture by Cardinal Christoph Schönborn on Chance and purpose.


Chance or Purpose

Apologetics 315: Responses to Stephen Hawking and The Grand Design

Brian Auten has done a great favor summarizes the responses of several Christian scholars to Stephen Hawkings and Lenard Mlodinow's book The Grand Design. Check it out at the link below.

Apologetics 315: Responses to Stephen Hawking and The Grand Design

THE INTERSECTION | MADNESS & REALITY: Jamal Parris, One Of Eddie Long's Accusers Speak; And I Understand And Believe Him

I don't agree with all of the blogger's views expressed on his site, but I've got to admit that this post is not just well-written but it's also heartfelt. It really bothers me that there so many people who have gone through this kind of abuse. It's horrible. I haven't personally dealt with this so I cannot and would not suggest that I know what someone in this position feels like, I don't. The things is I still really believe that Jesus can help anyone in this situation. Things like sexual abuse of others comes from not knowing who you are and misusing others.This is caused by sin. Not of the victim's but the perpetrator's sins.  God can fix this and any situation.


THE INTERSECTION | MADNESS & REALITY: Jamal Parris, One Of Eddie Long's Accusers Speak; And I Understand And Believe Him

Face Palm Quote of the Day #5 - Debunking Christianity: I Specialize in the Big Picture

Who is John Loftus? In his own words:

All scholars have a specialty, right? What's mine? As I said in my book Why I Became an Atheist, I specialize in the Big Picture. This is true and it's no joke. I gather as much of the relevant material as a mortal can possibly muster and try to make sense of it. Confound it though, all of the Big Picture specialists seem to be gone. I'm a scholar about the Big Picture (i.e., the forest) just as many other specialists are scholars about one of the trees in the forest, or a species of trees. When it comes to the Christian faith, I'm a Big Picture specialist about all things Christian. My specialty is in Countering Christian Apologetics.

What can I say? This is definitely a face palm quote. By his own admission, John Loftus is saying that he concentrates on the big picture? I think that in concentrating on the big picture points explain why he actually misses the big picture: Too many "trees" that he doesn't understand. Thinks like the Trinity and nature of God. And who God is. I've never seen anything that makes me think he knows what the Bible says or what it means. Truly a failure in scholarship.

Debunking Christianity: I Specialize in the Big Picture

Dr. Claude Mariottini - Professor of Old Testament: Religious Illiteracy in America

The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life has released the results of a survey of religious knowledge in America. I don't know what is more amazing: Americans scored so low on Biblical knowledge and religion in general or that Dr. Claude Mariottini and John Loftus have both independently written about it. Dr. Mariottini is a Christian therefore he and I find it sad and I agree with him that it's the church's responsibility to make sure people know what they believe and why they should believe it. Loftus on the other hand believes its evidence against Christianity. Can't see the forest for the trees. Of the 32 questions in the articles cited there were ony examples of a few of them. None of them were hard and I'm not surprised that atheists and agnostics scored higher. I would have liked to have seen harder questions like "Did the Council of Nicea (325 AD) set the Bible canon?" Or "Did Jesus claim to be God?" Or howabout "Does the Trinity doctrine presuppose three gods?" Many of the atheists and agnostics I have spoken with would fail these."

Dr. Claude Mariottini - Professor of Old Testament: Religious Illiteracy in America

Pew Survey: Atheists Know the Most About Religion!

Ron Rhodes - variuos audio lectures | True Freethinker

Thanks to Mariano for posting some great lectures from Ron Rhodes.

Ron Rhodes - variuos audio lectures | True Freethinker

Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Doctrinal causes of the Reformation

Here is a great article about the doctrinal causes of the Reformation. There were good reasons. Martin Luther and the other reformers didn't just wake up one day and decided they didn't want to be Roman Catholic anymore...they had good reason to do what they did.

Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Doctrinal causes of the Reformation

Debunking Christianity: A Visual Study Guide to COGNITIVE BIASES

John Loftus has placed the following on his blog:

This visual guide is excellent. Believers ought to study up on these biases and apply them to their faith just to help conduct an objective study of why they believe. If someone had the time to cut and paste these biases from page 9 onward, I would be grateful. Follow this link then at the bottom there are arrows to turn the page. You might want to click on "Full Screen" icon too. [Hat Tip to Luke at Common Sense Atheism].

Look very carefully at this list:

Cognitive Biases - A Visual Study Guide
I think anyone should realize that we do have biases. But just because you have a bias does not automatically make you wrong. What people like John Loftus should ask themselves what biases do they themselves have and honestly consider if their biases have blinded them to the truth. I would also say that just because someone disagrees with you does not mean that they have not examined themselves. I realize that many atheists have done this exercise. The thing is how can you even hope to judge rightly without God?

Debunking Christianity: A Visual Study Guide to COGNITIVE BIASES

FacePalm Quote of the Day #4: Debunking Christianity: The Outsider Test for Faith (OTF) Again *Sigh*

On the face of it, John Loftus' Outsider Test for Faith is a good idea. It's true that many people don't examine their worldviews and presuppositions critically and something that we must do. The problem with the way that John Loftus employs the test ignores his own presuppositions while decrying others'. Take this quote....please. [Begin Quote]

A trial is a good example of an outsider looking in. No thumbs should be on the scales of justice. If there is a conflict of interest a judge or a lawyer should recuse themselves. The jury represents people who are uninvolved peers. None of this describes believers who examine their own faith. The OTF demands the impartiality of agnostic, which is worse on one's own religion but better on the religious faiths one rejects.
In a jury trial not everyone agrees. But that's a jury trial about an event that strictly speaking is "on the boards," that is, it's about an ordinary event rather than a supposed extraordinary miraculous event. The whole reason Christians object to the OTF is because they know their faith will not pass the OTF.
Regardless, someone on a jury should at least be able to justify his decision afterward based on the skepticism of an outsider. One cannot punt to faith when judging the case before him like believers do an every juncture. That is ONLY being fair.
SteveK asks: Why does Loftus think it a problem when rational 'outsiders' conclude that, given the evidence, Atheism is false and Christianity is true?
Those are not our only options! The options are myriad and every bit in between! Besides, a person who rejects Hinduism in India is considered an an atheist, while someone in Saudi Arabia who rejects Islam is considered an atheist, etc. That makes YOU an atheist in the same way since the definition of an atheist is a non-believer. I am simply a non-believer by virtue of the fact that your religion doesn't pass the OTF. I am an atheist just as you are a non-believer in Hinduism or Islam in other countries.
So the choice becomes one between belief and non-belief. There are billions of people on the planet on my side who do not believe in your particular Christian sect. Seems like the jury of impartial peers has spoken.

[End Quote]
This quote gets a "Face Palm" because Loftus still mischaracterizes what "faith" means. He also I think mischaracterizes the historical definition of an "atheism". It' all or nothing. There is no such thing as a relative atheist. Historically, no one has tried to argue "I"m an atheist to all gods but mine". "Atheism" means belief that there is no god. Therefore if you believe in at least one god you cannot be an atheist. Otherwise it's like being a "little" pregnant. You are or you are not.
As for the Outsider's Test of faith...does Christianity pass it? According to Lofus' definition of "faith", Christianity does not pass. According to the Biblical definition of faith Christianity passes with flying colors. Loftus denies the evidence that the Bible presents viable evidence as well as evidence from history, science, and just our five senses. He out right believes that science is the only viable way for people to gain worthwhile knowledge. If that isn't a presupposition that begs proof, then neither is asserting that the Bible is infalliably true. We have plenty of evidence explaining why the Bible is reliable. Yet people who want to take science as the only infallible source of fact about reliable have no way of satisfyingly proving that position is reasonable. Definitely, arguing in a circle.

Debunking Christianity: The Outsider Test for Faith (OTF) Again *Sigh*

THE INTERSECTION | MADNESS & REALITY: Repression is not Morality: The Consequences of Sexual Suppression

I read this interesting article. It makes some good points but I think some mistakes have been made in that it puts the blame for sexual moral problems at sexual repression (which is true) but it makes the claim that its because of the Bible and the Qur'an and the great patristic monotheistic religions - Christianity, Islam, and Judaism and this I think is a mistake. The problem with sexual repression isn't ethic or moral standards. The problem is lack of them. I can't talk about Islam nor Judaism because I'm neither Muslim nor Jew. As a Christian, I blame the church for not teaching what God has said regarding sexuality. Sex was never meant to bring condemnation but joy and closeness. The only catch is that it has to be in a monogamous married relationship between a man and woman. Within these parameters we can truly be free and not repressed. If you want God's best you have to follow God and not your own way. We can trust Him.

THE INTERSECTION | MADNESS & REALITY: Repression is not Morality: The Consequences of Sexual Suppression

CNN's Don Lemon Admits Being Victim of Sexual Abuse In Midst of Bishop Eddie Long Controversy - The Snob Blog - Danielle Belton's The Black Snob

This article brings up some important information. I didn't know that Don Lemon has had to deal with such a thing as being victimized as a child. This crime is extremely widespread. A lot og lives have been destroyed. The cause? Simple - Sin. People behaving and acting against the standard God has for us. I'm not talking about the victims...I'm talking about the perpetrators. The victims suffer. The truth is so does the perpetrator. There is only one answer out of this - Jesus. Jesus can heal both the abuser and the victim.

In a rare, revealing moment on television, CNN's Don Lemon admitted for the first time in public that he was a victim of sexual abuse as a child. While conducting a televised discussion with a group of Bishop Eddie Long supporters Saturday, Lemon recalled abuse that started when he was six-years-old. As reported on Richard Prince's Journal-ism's blog for the Maynard Institute, Lemon said he hid the secret of his abuse until he was 30 years old because of shame.

CNN's Don Lemon Admits Being Victim of Sexual Abuse In Midst of Bishop Eddie Long Controversy - The Snob Blog - Danielle Belton's The Black Snob

Superhero Psychology - ComicsAlliance | Comics culture, news, humor, commentary, and reviews

Here is a video of real psychologists discussing whether or not characters like Batman are insane. They also discuss supervillians. Looking at such questions are real interesting and help in understanding psychology in such "case studies".



Crazy Sexy Geeks: Superhero Psychology Part 1 - Batman from Alan Kistler on Vimeo.

Link Ink: Chris Evans as Steve Rogers, 'Pushing Daisies' as a Comic, and Superhero Psychology - ComicsAlliance | Comics culture, news, humor, commentary, and reviews

Apologetics 315: Mortimer J. Adler on Faith and Reason

Brian Auten has posted a great quote by Mortimer J. Adler about Faith. Considering the past couple of posts yesterday I posted about what "faith" is and what "faith" isn't I thought that this quote was great.
"I suspect that most of the individuals who have religious faith are content with blind faith. They feel no obligation to understand what they believe. They may even wish not to have their beliefs disturbed by thought. But if God in whom they believe created them with intellectual and rational powers, that imposes upon them the duty to try to understand the creed of their religion. Not to do so is to verge on superstition."
- Mortimer J. Adler
I agree with him. God commands us to understand what we believe and why we believe it. We should be able to talk to explain it.
Apologetics 315: Mortimer J. Adler on Faith and Reason

Iron Sharpens Iron: James R. White: The Assumption of Mary: An Analysis of the Recent Debate with Robert Sungenis

It is always great to hear what debaters think after a debate. James White was interviewed on Iron Sharpens Iron on his debate against Robert Sungenis regarding the bodily assumption of Mary. I listened to the debate last week and I think Dr. White more than proved his point. There is no Biblical nor historical reason to believe that Mary went to heaven bodily. You also cannot prove anyone in the first 4 centuries believed it - let alone taught it. This is a great interview!

Iron Sharpens Iron: James R. White: The Assumption of Mary: An Analysis of the Recent Debate with Robert Sungenis

Bishop Eddie Long | Minute-by-minute recap of Long's comments Sunday | ajc.com

Thanks to the Black Snob blog I got this link for the full transcript and video of Bishop Eddie Long's comments to his congregation today regarding the scandal that broke earlier this week. IT was not what I was hoping for. He made no apology nor did he plead his innocence. What we want to know is did he use his power and influence to force young men to have sex with him - thereby sinning against his wife, the children, and their families, and worse against God? This is sexual abuse in the extreme. This is the answer he did not give. I'm definitely going to be following this story.


Bishop Eddie Long | Minute-by-minute recap of Long's comments Sunday | ajc.com

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FacePalm of the Day #3

Luckily this is just a single FacePalm. John Loftus has posted an interesting quote. It's due an amazing presupposition.

I have been able to pose the Outsider Test for Faith OTF to a few Christian friends of mine... and this has shown to be very well accepted as a means of seeking and questioning. They agree with the approach, and some have even admitted that they've never given so much as a minute of thought to the outside religions and faiths of the world. The quote "when you understand why you reject the gods of other religions, you'll understand why I reject yours." Powerful quote... because people don't know why they reject the other gods and faiths... so now, the question is brought to their attention... and either they must continue in their blissful ignorance, or begin an honest examination of WHY they believe what they believe.
For me, this is the most honest, non-threatening approach to discussions with a theist.

The presupposition is this: No Christians ever think about why reject other religions. This is amazing to me. I must agree that there is truth in there. Many Christians could not really make an adequate defense for why they believe what they believe let alone explain what they believe. This is a silly presupposition because its not true about all Christians. I also really dislike the use of

The quote "when you understand why you reject the gods of other religions, you'll understand why I reject yours."

It presupposes that all evidence for any truth claim for all religions are uncompelling and absent. This is false. I'd say that there are many atheists who haven't the foggiest idea what evidences there are for the Bible or Christianity and have never bothered to really look into it. I am a Christian who have looked at and examined evidences and have more than found it compelling. What about those atheists and agnostics who have done the same and come up with a different result? The Bible gives answers - they don't conflict but they must be taken together.

²¹But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." - John 3:21

¹⁸The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, ¹⁹since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. ²⁰For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Romans 1:18-20

⁵Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. ⁶The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; ⁷the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. ⁸Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. Romans 8:5-8

⁶And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Hebrews 11:6

²⁴"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. ²⁵And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. ²⁶From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. ²⁷God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. ²⁸'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'
²⁹"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill. ³⁰In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. ³¹For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead." Acts 17:24-31

²Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. ³And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. ⁴The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. - 2 Cor 4:2-4

¹⁸For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. ¹⁹For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." - 1 Corinthians 1:18-19

Quote of the Day, by Isaac