YouTube - The Messiah: Jesus in the Bible and Quran - a Muslim-Christian Debate

thereandverbalizer posted the following debate. Take a look.

This is very nice interaction. An Anglican Christian Rob Scott of St Helens Church London and Sami Zatari an international speaker for MDI (Muslim Debate Initiative).
20th of April 2009 in Central London, AbrarHouse Hall.

YouTube - The Messiah: Jesus in the Bible and Quran - a Muslim-Christian Debate

Debunking Christianity: The 25 Most Influential Living Atheists

Oh look! John Loftus has actually posted a useful post! A list of atheists to pray for!!!! Thanks! Complete with names and pictures!!!!

Debunking Christianity: The 25 Most Influential Living Atheists

Dietrich Bonhoeffer – the Christian man and the secular myth | True Freethinker

AdoMariano has posted a great article regarding one of the few men of Germany who actively opposed Adolph Hitler. And he was a Christian. Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Eric Metaxas has new research on this man and Mariano has posted videos of his interview with Glenn Beck (don't let that stop you from watching the interview). Turns out that many people have Bohenhoeffer and his motivations all wrong. Thanks, Mariano.








Dietrich Bonhoeffer – the Christian man and the secular myth | True Freethinker

ID.Plus: Peter S. Williams on '5 Flaws In The Thinking Of The New Atheists'

God bless Dr. Peter Williams. I enjoy him whenever I get to hear him speak. In the video he talks about the five problems he finds with the new atheist's arguments against God.




ID.Plus: Peter S. Williams on '5 Flaws In The Thinking Of The New Atheists'

"Celebrate (He Lives)" lyrics by FRED HAMMOND

I know he lives (woah)
I believe he lives (ooh)
I'm sure he lives (woah)
I'm sure he lives
(How ya'll doin today?)
I know he lives (The savior lives)
The savior lives (ooh, oh)

It's time to celebrate the savior and his worth
Let's shout because we know he lives and we are certain
His love has set us free our enemies defeated
If with me you agree... come on and lift up your hands

[chorus]
Everybody lift your hands if you know that Jesus is worthy
Open up and give him praise let's do it in a hurry
If you love him let's glorify in the song and in the dance
You know the savior lives come on and lift up your hands

To understand just why we praise let me tell you how it all went down
The news spread so very fast people came from miles around
This would be the day Christ would be crucified
He took his last breath he hung his head and he died
They took my savior down from off that rugged cross
They laid him in a tomb it seemed all hope was truly lost
But the third day came along and broke the rhythm of life
The stone was rolled away an angel proudly proclaimed

[bridge]
He lives (He lives) He lives
(Christ is risen) Christ is risen just like he said
(Our Lord and savior) The Lord and saviors' no longer dead
Rejoice and celebrate He lives He lives-Jesus, He's alive!

[chorus x2]

[bridge x3]

"Celebrate (He Lives)" lyrics by FRED HAMMOND

Vashawn Mitchell - Nobody Greater Video

In case you don't understand the meaning of the song - It's about Jesus.

vashawn mitchell - nobody greater mp4 download

[Verse 1:]
I climbed up to the highest mountain
I looked all around, couldn't find nobody
Went down into the deepest valley
Looked all around down there, couldn't find nobody
I went across the deep blue sea
Couldn't find one to compare... to your grace, your love, your mercy
Nobody greater... nobody greater than you

[Chorus]
Searched all over... couldn't find nobody
I looked high and low... still couldn't find nobody
Nobody greater... nobody greater no... nobody greater than you

[Verse 2:]
Nobody can heal... like you can
Oh most holy one you are the Great I Am
Awesome in all your ways and mighty is your hand
You are He who carried out redemption's plan
You are He who carried out redemption's plan

[Chorus: x2]
Searched all over... couldn't find nobody
I looked high and low... still couldn't find nobody
Nobody greater... nobody greater... nobody greater than you

Nobody greater... nobody greater... nobody greater than you [repeat, adlib and fade]

Vashawn Mitchell - Nobody Greater Video

Can A Metamorphesis Be Reversed? Examining Apostasy. - Responding back

Seems Like Ryan Anderson responded back to the questions I raised. I've posted his comments below and I will Respond. He bolded my comment he specifically addresses. I'm going to make my comments in red.


Well crap, I thought those questions were posed by Hugh, not you Marcus. Oh well, that will teach me to pay more attention.

I can tell by your comments, that you need to pay more attention to not only who addresses you but to what they actually said. If denominations differ so much why couldn't you tell a difference between what I believe and what Hugh believes?

Marcus: He keeps saying that, but never has managed to proven it.
Right, just like I can’t prove Noah fought off our evil slug overlords on Pangea 175 million years ago…

Good thing the Bible doesn't say Noah fought off evil slug overlords. Therefore it has no bearing on if the Bible is right or not. Try again.

Me: But, if I go to the trouble of answering these questions for you, I'll expect a description of your "born again" experience. Fair's fair.
Again, I thought I was responding to Hugh, I already know about your “born again” experience.

I don't think you do because you said you think it's no different than your own.

Marcus: It's crime and violence against the character of God himself.
Right, so how’s that differ from “deviation from godliness”?

"deviation from godliness" fails to capture how truly bad sin is. It makes it sound like you jay walked or walked on grass when there was a sign telling you not to walk on it. It shows that you don't look at sin the way God does...maybe you never did. Sin (from failing to help someone when you can help them to mass murder and everything in between) is that bad that hell can only be the logical result.

Marcus: I was actually asking about if you consider yourself a sinner now?
And I told you I would be responding as how I understood these things from when I was a Christian. Obviously you know that I don’t believe in sin as a metaphysical thing now, but of course there are standards.

Are you a sinner according to those standards?

Marcus: the question was more directed to your condition today.
Right, see above. Pretty much everything you wrote on this, from my perspective now as an atheist, is just gibberish.

Are you morally culpable for transgressing standards today?

Marcus: “Didn't you ever pray for guidance? Didn't you ever pray for wisdom? Didn't you ever pray to be a blessing to other people? Have you ever asked God to give you patience?
Of course.

Did you get it? What about the other questions I asked about prayer. You really didn't give a full answer.

Marcus: Everyone knows that if you are honest most of the time you have no idea what you are doing….
I think I asked for specific details of instances that could not be explained naturally. Oh well, to be fair I thought I was asking that of Hugh.

I did give such instances at the end. The fact that I have experienced such instances and you haven't shows that you don't know what it's like to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or to be born-again.

Marcus: I'm not sure what your confusion is here, Ryan. Where did I say you should only go on your feelings to relate to God? When did I say that you should only use head knowledge to relate to God? I didn't.
If I say I knew scripture (I did and do), you’ll say I only had head knowledge, if I say I had a very emotional experience (I did) you’ll say I only had a “feeling”. It’s not honest on your part and answering these questions is a no win situation on mine, but hey, you can believe whatever you want, and this helps you continue to believe.

No I wouldn't. I think that you did know something about scripture. I am certain that you had very emotional experience. Those things don't add up to be born-again. The Bible says the same things about demons - they know scripture and they have emotional experiences. Also if you think those things were real why do you think that they weren't real enough to sustain your faith? You are in a no win situation because you disagree with the Bible.

Marcus: You really didn't describe your born-again experience.
Of course I did.

You said you gained head knowledge and had an emotional experience and had prayers you thought were answered. If you think that this all a born-again experience is - you were cheated.

Marcus: What sins did you stop doing after your received Jesus as your Lord and Savior?
Too many to count, drinking, smoking pot and “fornication” for three.

When you gave up Christ did you go back to those sins or any of the things you used to do.

Marcus: Did you have an insatiable hunger to read the Bible and learn more about God?
Yes.

What happened to that? And given what you have said about the Bible, I find it difficult to believe you ever learned anything about his character and who God is.

Marcus: I had a huge problem with the fact that slavery had been an institution in the United States - so much so that I thought that any white person who owned slaves had gone straight to hell. I was convicted by this when God made me realize that this thought was not Biblical. It's not part of the Gospel.
Yeah, I could have told you that… I’m pretty sure divine intervention wasn’t what made you realize that. Maybe you just grew up a little?

Yes, it was God. Given how you and other atheist think its so horrible that God does not explicitly condemn slavery in the Bible, I would think that such an attitude says "Those people deserve to be in hell (if there is a hell), not me. They owned slaves." Our society has gone out its way to condemn them and thinks of them as backward and immoral. As if we are better than them. We are not. It's harder to see that as a descendant of slaves and still living with the results of their actions. Somethings come easier to see than other things. Those things take a revelation from God.

Marcus: The word the Bible uses to say "transformed" is the same word we get "metamorphosis" from. Ryan, you claim to know biology better than I do. Therefore you know that there is not a single change described in biology as a metamorphosis that is reversible.
You will need to substantiate your assertion that the born again experience qualifies as a “metamorphosis”, and obviously it’s not a biological metamorphosis so I’ve already got that working against you.

How can it not be a metamorphosis of mind and attitude? You go from not caring or thinking of God at least and hating God at worst to handing over your life and submitting yourself and all you have control over to Him. Given that you presented yourself as a living sacrifice then crawled off the altar and now refuse to get back on that altar points to that your mind may never had been transformed. I know of sick people who became well after they became born-again so I would not be so quick to discount the biological component. And we will be getting new bodies when Jesus returns - completing the metamorphosis to what we have always intended to be (see 1 Corinthians 15 - I thought you said you knew your Bible).

Marcus: I have to wonder how much weight did it hold for you when you were a "Christian".
A lot. I’ve read it cover to cover twice and cannot tell you how many times I’ve read the Gospels and various books.

But did it change you? And why doesn't it hold any weight now. Originally, I posted several verses that tell explicitly if you leave Christ you was never a part. Did you ever understand them that way? Either you are wrong or the Bible is wrong. You both can't be right. When you were a Christian what verses bothered you and how did reconcile them with yourself? Did you say well, "I guess I'm wrong" or where they the catalyst for what you are now?

I said ”But, if I go to the trouble of answering these questions for you, I'll expect a description of your "born again" experience. Fair's fair.”
Marcus said ”It'll be at the very end of this in red.”

You never did get around to this, but that’s ok because I thought I was asking that of Hugh and you and I already discussed yours a while back and it closely resembled mine.

Yup, you really didn't pay attention. I explained about what sanctification is and how it plays a part in the on-going born-again experience and I never heard you discuss that. It's been essential to my walk with Jesus. Without it I don't know how you can stay committed to God. Because evil and hateful of godliness is what we are by default. God has to change us so that we can be in relationship with us. God is not going to change. God doesn't have to change.

Marcus: “It seems to me that if you reject the scriptures as being true now, you actually prove that they are indeed true because you are fulfilling them. They are describing you.”

Wow, the bible contains psychology and insights into human nature… amazing… Do me a favor, presuppose the bible is not true, pretend it’s the book of Mormon, the Qu’ran or something. Would you be amazed that it included some passages explaining away the fact that some people would not believe it?

We can demonstrate that the Book of Mormon and the Qur'an are wrong. Putting them alongside the Bible as being equal makes me wonder even if your really know what is any of the three. All three conflict with one another. Either they are all wrong or one of them wrong. No two of them can be simultaneously true. Do me a favor and make an intelligent argument for why you think the Bible is not true. No need to bring up the Qur'an or the Book of Mormon. We agree that they are wrong. The bottom line is you can't even live up to your own standards of right and wrong. How do you fix it?

What had happen' was.....: Can A Metamorphesis Be Reversed? Examining Apostasy.

Can A Metamorphesis Be Reversed? Examining Apostasy.

Ryan Anderson who says he was a Christian for 25 years and then left the Christian Church to become agnostics with respect to the question of a god who started the Universe and an atheist with respect to the God of the Bible. I posed some questions and some statements to him regarding what it means to be a born-again Christian from a Biblical perspective. He...er graciously...answered them. Instead of trying to just dash off  some responses and more questions in the comments I decided to separate it into another post.  I've placed my quoted words in Black, bolded, italic font.  His words will be in black bolded text. Ryan has been arguing that he was every way as much as a Christian as I am now and the differences are only because of denomination. My responses to what he answered will be in red text. I started this part of our interaction as follows:

Ryan, if the Bible is true these two things is true:
1. You never knew Jesus the Christ because you left
2. A born-again believer can't become unborn-again anymore than a butterfly can turn back into caterpillar.

Let's go back to first things.
1. Do you know what sin is? Define it.
2. Are you a sinner? If you apply the Biblical standard and honesty you know you have to say you are a sinner, You cannot even keep the moral standard you have set for yourself.
3. If you are a sinner what do you give God as Propitiation? What about when fail your family and friends? If you are accountable how do y0ou make up your mistakes when you don't do what you are supposed to do?
4. As a "Christian" if you were walking around feeling guilt and pain over your past or present or future, you were definitely doing it wrong.
5. If you now say that prayer does not work and when you were "saved" for 25 yrs you only thought it worked, I've got to say given points 1-4 maybe God just ignored your prayers. That's not saying that God doesn't hear prayers from non-Christians because he does and can choose to grant them what they pray for, but God ignoring you or just outright saying "No" might explain your experience.
6. If you were saved it would mean having a relationship with God. Not just a "feeling" but a back and forth relationship. You claim that you didn't. That flies against my experience and every born-again Christian I have ever known.
7. Head Knowledge is not enough. Necessary but in no way sufficient. 

Ryan  Anderson answered me in the following way with my comments.

Right, because the bible isn't true, at least not about the supernatural stuff.

He keeps saying that, but never has managed to proven it.

I'll answer these later tonight, and I'll answer from the perspective of a believer because apparently you can't quite get your arms around the notion that my beliefs now do not reflect my beliefs from a past period.


At least he kept his promise to respond.

But, if I go to the trouble of answering these questions for you, I'll expect a description of your "born again" experience. Fair's fair.

It'll be at the very end of this in red.


OK, here you go. Also I have no doubt that some minor deviation from how your particular sect would answer some of these will give you license to yell "False Convert!!!"

Let's us see the conclusion of the whole matter.

1. Tough to define, there are the obvious ones like lusting in your heart or hating, but I came to think of it more as deviation from godliness or the difference between what you actually do and what you should do (or what god would do).

Notice how you look at sin, Ryan, as what you do. Methodists, as well as all other Bible-based denominations,  don't define sin only in that limit view. It's more than just failing to live up to the standard God has set. It's crime and violence against the character of God himself. Think of it this way: you have a child who, after raising him/her up and giving him everything he/she could ever need, and he/she turns her back on you, rejects you, curses you, and spits in your face. Not only that but they do violence to others and try to destroy everything you have built for them. Think of how much that would hurt as a loving Father and you start to come closer to how our sin is an affront to God. It's not just about what you did or do - it's about what you fail to do. I can't ding you too hard for missing a lot of the thrust here because if you truly understood what Jesus did for you on that cross you would not have left Him.

2. You answered this one for me, but of course as a Christian, I believe I, and everyone else was a sinner and was born that way, that's how they scare you into needing the cure.

I was actually asking about if you consider yourself a sinner now? Do you live up to the standards of what you know to be right and shunning doing wrong now?

3. As a Christian, nothing, except faith in Christ. If you fell short, you were to "go forth and sin no more" or at least try. Maybe I misunderstood what you were asking.

Definitely misunderstood. Not surprising though because I don't think you ever understood it.  Ryan, the question was more directed to your condition today. By Biblical definitions, you are still a sinner. How do you fix that. You and I will always fall short. How do you make up for that?  Why shouldn't God just take you out? When you were Christian, did you understand that Jesus alone makes the difference? Without him you will receive the full wrath of God - what we truly deserve. We had an interaction  once where you vehemently denied that people are inherently evil and without any hope of doing good on our own apart from God. You kept saying that people are capable of doing good things and never seemed to understand that I do not deny that. Instead I am saying that the Bible shows us that we are not good - instead we are shaped in iniquity  and every inclination to evil - without God. I'd bet that when you were a Christian you would have denied those truths in the Bible just like you do today.

4. This was more of a statement than a question. I felt a lot of guilt prior to being born again, and then not after.

I'm kind of wondering where did I tell you I was only going to be asking you questions.After being born-again a believer should be going through the lifelong process of sanctification. This means that God starts cleaning you up from your sins and you grow to become more like Jesus Christ. You sin less and less. Your thought processes and relationships with others change. You get closer to God. The thing is the more closer you get to God the more filthy you see you are. You see you have sins you didn't even know you had.  That's not saying the guilt comes back or increase. No. Joy and gratitude to God for saving you increases. It continually goes on. I realize that you,Ryan, was writing quickly and not giving a lot of details but in all of our interactions you have never brought this up as something you experienced. Every believer that I know, including myself, will testify to this.

5. Again, not so much a question. But I will say my prayers were sometimes "answered" and sometimes not. At the time, I was amazing when they were "answered", more likely I was simply counting the hits and dismissing the misses.

I think you are making a big assumption here, Ryan. To be fair I think most people make this same  mistake: thinking an "answered" prayer  means that things turned out the way you prayed for them to turn out.  However God can and sometimes does say "No". In my experience some of my greatest blessings have come time when God has said "No". Another difference I see between mine and other believers I know experiences contrasted with yours  is that you never talk about other kinds of prayers other than asking God to do something on your behalf. There are other types of prayers. Didn't you ever pray for guidance? Didn't you ever pray for wisdom? Didn't you ever pray to be a blessing to other people? Have you ever asked God to give you patience?  Have you ever interceded with God on the behalf of anyone but yourself? Some of the best ways I've seen God move in such a way that there were no other explanation but that God did it were in those circumstances when I was concerned with pleasing him more than myself. My experience with God is that God never misses.

6. Please describe in detail some of the examples of reciprocation in your "back-and-forth" relationship with god and explain how those instances could not possibly have a natural explanation. I suspect, like I said before, you are merely counting the hits and dismissing the misses.

Everyone knows that if you are honest most of the time you have no idea what you are doing. We are all really "winging" it.  I have had the experience of God's guidance. Giving me knowledge I did not know and how to apply it when I needed it.  He's done it by having someone  tell me about something I asked God about. And sometimes it's been straight revelation. Also there have been many times when God did not and has not told me things I wanted to know when I wanted to know them. He does both. It's not something we are in control over. I have walked up to people and been able to tell them exactly what they needed hear or read because God gave me what they needed. God has spared my life on numerous occasions - from dangers I knew about and some I did not - even before I was saved.I know what it's like to about to say or do something in anger, and the Holy Spirit stops me. Sometimes it's been a nudge and there have been times God has shut my mouth. I thank Him for both.

7. Again, not really a question, but on one hand you say it's not enough to "feel", on the other, head knowledge isn't enough. Is this one of the mysteries of your cult?

I'm not sure what your confusion is here, Ryan. Where did I say you should only go on your feelings to relate to God? When did I say that you should only use head knowledge to relate to God? I didn't. I'm thinking that you only had a head knowledge of scripture. and you didn't have a change in heart - mind and attitude. The more I learn about God the more I learn how much I need to change in my thinking and actions. You really didn't describe your born-again experience. What sins did you stop doing after your received Jesus as your Lord and Savior? How did your life change? Did you have an insatiable hunger to read the Bible and learn more about God? These are what happened to me and continue to grow and manifest. For example, recently God revealed a huge problem I had and I didn't even know it. I had a huge problem with the fact that  slavery had been an institution in the United States - so much so that I thought that any white person who owned slaves had gone straight to hell. I was convicted by this when God made me realize that this thought was not Biblical. It's not part of the Gospel. It's not a litmus test for who makes it heaven or not. I was floored! I didn't even know I was that prejudiced. Another example is I thought that people who left Christianity or just rejected Jesus were stupid. I thought that there was something about me more special than they are. God again showed me how stupid that is - from scripture. When you were a Christian, how did God change your mind? Can you relate to the prophet Isaiah? He said:

“Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.” - Isaiah 6:5

If you don't have a clue about how Isaiah felt, you weren't saved.  The thing about the born-again experience it's about a change in you. You are not supposed to be the same person you were before your conversion. It's a one-way conversion. Again: once one is born you can't become unborn. This is why Jesus used the term "born again" (or "born from above") to describe it in John 3. 

Paul was also clear in Romans 12:1,2

Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.  Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

It's an ongoing transformation not a one-time deal.. The word the Bible uses to say "transformed" is the same word we get "metamorphosis" from. Ryan, you claim to know biology better than I do. Therefore you know that there is not a single change described in biology as a metamorphosis that is reversible. For example butterflies do not turn back into caterpillars. This is why the changes born-again person goes through is described that.

Ryan, I recognize that the Bible holds not weight for you and I have to wonder how much weight did it hold for you when you were a "Christian". I think if you think back you will remember quite a few things in it you didn't accept from the Bible back then either. There are two more scriptures that I would point to underscore the point that saved people can't become unsaved. 

So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.- 1 Corinthians 5:16-21

Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 1 John 2:18-20

I know that there are some Christians who do believe that you can loose your salvation. Ryan, you may have been one of these. However, the scripture that tell us to persevere and not give up or turn away are there because we should never look at this as if  you can do whatever you want and still be saved. If you are still doing and thinking all of the same stuff you were before you were born-again it's proof that you were not born-again. There should be some thing different if you are truly a new creation. 

Ryan, consider for a moment: It seems to me that if you reject the scriptures as being true now, you actually prove that they are indeed true because you are fulfilling them. They are describing you. IT doesn't have to be that way. Everyone is born a sinner, and if you or anyone repents and agrees with God, He will accept you and change you the way the Bible promises. I know because that is what I experienced and you didn't.

Darwin's Black Box: Michael Behe vs Keith Fox - apologetics - blip.tv

Michael Behe debates Keith Fox on Intelligent Design and Evolution. Follow the link at the end to hear the debate.

October, 2010 Michael Behe is professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University, Pennsylvania and the founder of the modern Intelligent Design movement. His book "Darwin's Black Box" ignited the controversy 14 years ago when it claimed that certain molecular machines and biological processes are "irreducibly complex" and cannot be explained by Darwinian evolution. His new book "The Edge of Evolution" takes his conclusions further, arguing that the Darwinian processes of random mutation and natural selection are incapable of producing the variation and complexity we see in most of life. So can we conclude that life was intelligently designed by a creator? Keith Fox is Professor of biochemistry at the University of Southampton and chairman of Christians in Science. As a theistic evolutionist he believes that Evolution is the best explanation going for the complexity we see and that ID is a blind scientific alley and theologically unappealing to boot. They debate whether micromachines in the cell such as the "bacterial flagellum" could have evolved by a Darwinian process of evolution. When inference to design is and isn't acceptable in science. Whether random mutation can mathematically stack up to complex life, and whether God is reduced to a divine "tinkerer" by ID.

Darwin's Black Box: Michael Behe vs Keith Fox - apologetics - blip.tv

Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism: Alvin Plantinga vs Stephen Law - apologetics - blip.tv

Introduction to the debate:

Richard Dawkins has said that "the theory of evolution made it possible to be an intellecually fulfilled atheist". But what if belief in evolution becomes irrational on atheist naturalism? Alvin Plantinga is one of the foremost Christian philosophers in the world and is leading a resurgence of Christian philosophy in North America. He has formulated the "Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism" which proposes that if evolution is true then it provides a defeater for rational belief on a naturalistic framework. Can we trust our beliefs to be true if they have been produced by minds that are themselves the products of unguided evolution - a process that is geared towards producing beliefs for survival, not necessarily for truth? He explains the force of the argument and debates its implications with Stephen Law, atheist and Senior lecturer in philosophy at Heythrop college, University of London. Stephen is also Provost of the Centre for Inquiry UK. Plantinga also states where he stands on Intelligent Design, the problem of evil and a few other things besides

Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism: Alvin Plantinga vs Stephen Law - apologetics - blip.tv

Iron Sharpens Iron: Sam Shamoun: The Deification of Muhammad: Is Islam Itself Guilty of Shirk?

Sam Shamoun was interviewed on Iron Sharpens Iron. He discussed how some Muslims deify Muhammad. Follow the link to listen to the program.

Iron Sharpens Iron: Sam Shamoun: The Deification of Muhammad: Is Islam Itself Guilty of Shirk?

Related articles

• Islam's Latest Contributions to Peace (dickiebo.wordpress.com)
• Jihad Watch's Robert Spencer to debate Moustafa Zayed (secularnewsdaily.com)

Dr. Claude Mariottini - Professor of Old Testament: The Tomb of Esther and Mordecai

Dr Mariottini posted a link to a news article that describes plans some people have in Iran to destroy the tomb of Queen Esther and her cousin Mordecai in response to “alleged Israeli plans to damage the Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem.” Dr Mariottini further quoted:

Iranians believe that Esther and Mordecai were responsible for the massacre of 75 thousand Iranians in a single day, an event which the Jews celebrate at Purim. According to Iranians “the annual Jewish festival of Purim is celebrated by Jews to commemorate this ‘Iranian Holocaust.’”

This is the most interesting part of the post to me because I didn't know that there was even such a viewpoint in Iran existed regarding Purim. According to the book of Esther, those 75,000 citizens of the Persian Empire dided because the Jews defended themselves the day that it was decreed that all Jews were supposed to be killed. This was in the Persian Empire and both the attempted extermination and the Jews' defending themselves were decreed by King Xerxes - emperor of the Persian Empire. Goes to show that people can view the same incident 100% opposite.

Dr. Claude Mariottini - Professor of Old Testament: The Tomb of Esther and Mordecai

FacePalm of the Day #46 - Islam and Christianity A Common Word: Anglican bishops declare that Jesus is not God.

thegrandverbalizer has seized upon the report:

In the British newspaper the "Daily News" 25/6/84
under the heading "Shock survey of Anglican Bishops"

We read

"More than half of England's Anglican Bishops say that Christians are not
obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God, according to a survey
published today. The pole of 31 of England's 39 bishops shows that many of
them think that Christ's miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection
might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible. Only 11 of the
bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man,
while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as 'God's supreme agent'"

He uses the this report to make the argument that learned Christians have been moving away from standard traditional teachings that he attributes to Paul.

And that the stories of the ministry of Jesus in the Bible
have been extensively tampered with by the hands of mankind.

The Church, as Heinz Zahrnt put it "put words into the mouth of Jesus which
he never spoke and attributed actions to him which he never performed." One
of those who has shown that most of what the church says about Jesus is
baseless is Rudolph Augustein in his book "Jesus the Son of Man." Another
very comprehensive study of this matter can be found in the book "The Myth
of God Incarnate" which was written by seven theologian scholars in England
in 1977 and edited by John Hick. Their conclusion in this matter is that
Jesus was "a man approved by God, for a special role within the divine
purpose, and..... the later conception of him as God incarnate ... is a
mythological or poetic way of expressing his significance for us." See also
John Mackinnon Robertson's "Christianity and Mythology" T.W Doane's "The
Bible Myths and their Parallels in Other Religions" (A good summary of these
studies is available in M.F. Ansarei, "Islam and Christianity in the Modern
World").

This post by thegrandverbalizer throws out all kinds of assumptions and thoughts and offers nothing but the opinions of some who don't represent the viewpoints of all scholars. Some of the people he quotes make some rather strange statements. Take this one for instance:

A University of Richmond professor, Dr. Robert Alley, after considerable
research into newly found ancient documents concludes that

"....The (Biblical) passages where Jesus talks about the Son of God are
later additions.... what the church said about him. Such a claim of deity
for himself would not have been consistent with his entire lifestyle as we
can reconstruct. For the first three decades after Jesus' death Christianity
continued as a sect within Judaism. The first three decades of the existence
of the church were within the synagogue. That would have been beyond belief
if they (the followers) had boldly proclaimed the deity of Jesus."

We know for a fact that there were many gentile Christians within the first 30 years of the crucifixion. There is no way it makes since that all Christians were within the synagogues given that gentiles could not go into the synagogues or Temple. Yes, all of the first Christians were Jews, but it didn't stay that way. Traditionally, it's been accepted by Christians that at least two of the books of the New Testament was written by a Gentile - Luke. Look at what thegrandverbalizer wrote:

Notice what the Bible itself says here:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

¹Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, ²That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

³Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Now clearly the Bible mentions that there will be a great apostasy-a falling away. However, you
the discerning Christian will have to ask yourself. Is that process going on now? It is an ongoing
process? Or was it something that happened in the early Christian community? Why is that the more learned Christians are moving away from the doctrine of the Trinity?

Maybe indeed these people are all reprobates and apostates. However, maybe they have just woken up as they become privy to the facts. I mean Paul writes the majority of the New Testament yet not so much a peep from Jesus about this guy? Paul is not mentioned any where in the Old Testament yet he is so crucial to the development, shape and destiny of Christianity? Maybe some folks got to scratching their heads trying to make heads or tails of it all.

Notice how thegrandverbalizer tries to discount and discredit Paul, yet is more than happy to use 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 to suggest that the Trinity is an example of people falling away from the true faith Jesus taught. Why is this such a FacePalm? Wait for it.....Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians. I realize that there are some scholars might try to argue Paul did not write it but I'd like to see them prove it.

As for thegrandverbalizer's exegetical skills let the way he presents John 17:3 speak for itself.

This is exactly what Jesus himself testified to in the Bible:

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and
Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

John 17:3

What did Jesus say? Far from denying his deity, Jesus affirms it. He is saying that eternal life comes from knowing God and knowing himself - equating himself with God. Far from denying the Trinitarian doctrine because the doctrine does not say that Jesus and God is the same person. The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit share the same being.

As for the condition of the Anglican church, it has had problems from the beginning. Don't forget that it started because King Henry VIII wanted to be able divorce his wives until he found the one to deliver him a male heir (and he wasn't above murdering them to get what he wanted). That's not saying that there aren't Anglicans who are just as saved and born-again as any real Christian. Given today that much of the Anglican church today is so inclusive of homosexuality as being a viable lifestyle, I'd say that the Anglican denominations now adopting such views as throwing out Biblical inerrancy and Jesus' deity is not really a big surprise. When you let Biblical inerrancy go, of course you go off the rails - and quickly. Anything will do and anything goes.

Islam and Christianity A Common Word: Anglican bishops declare that Jesus is not God.

God, the Universe & Stephen Hawking by John Lennox - Apologetics 315

I really enjoy John Lennox's work. His lectures and knowledge has always impressed me. It's interesting to hear him respond to Stephen Hawkings latest arguments. I'm really glad to hear that Dr. Lennox will be responding with an upcoming book.  Thanks again to Brian Auten for posting this. Follow the link below to to his blog to listen to it.

God, the Universe & Stephen Hawking by John Lennox - Apologetics 315

Iron Sharpens Iron: David Wood: The Islamic Dilemma

David Wood was recently interviewed on Iron Sharpens Iron. He discussed Islam. It's always great to hear David Wood. Follow the link below to hear the interview.

Iron Sharpens Iron: David Wood: The Islamic Dilemma

The Holiness of God from the Go, Stand, Speak Conference, August, 2010

The Holiness of God from pat necerato on Vimeo.


The Holiness of God from the Go, Stand, Speak Conference, August, 2010

Official Android App

Image via Wikipedia
It's taken several weeks but I finally figured out how to make the first image on each blog post to show up in the Android App that I put together to compliment this blog. The other features I had on the earlier drafts are still here:

1. Single post viewed one at a time.
2. Link to the full blog.
3. Link to each post on the blog.
4. Reads the post out loud through that phone speakers.
5. Shaking the phone closes the app.

The app should work on  any android powered device. Further, I've placed the apk file on the media fire site for free download. I've also generated at a QR code for download. If you have an Android phone/tablet please download the BeeTagg app from the Android Market for free to download and install my app directly to you phone. Just scan the QR code below. You can find out more about BeeTagg by going to my post about it on my gadget blog.

Here is a short video showing the app in action. If you try it out, please leave some comments about it. Please note that your web browser will pop up allowing you to download the app and then you can use your preferred method of installing apk's on your device. I suggest Rhythm Software's Installer.

FacePalm of the Day #45 - Debunking Christianity: "If I Am Wrong...I Want to Know"

John Loftus recently quoted Articulett whom evidently he agrees with. I think it would be instructive to look at the argument and see why it leads to multiple facepalms. 

Now there's a statement I endorse. What's more likely, that a believer or a skeptic wrote it?

When it comes to supernatural beliefs, there is just no error correcting mechanism-- you have no way to tell if you are wrong-- you just keep making excuses or trying to have more faith or writing it off to mystery. If I am wrong about something I think is true, I want to know--- and I trust reality to correct my errors. But what is there to correct the error of someone who has a wrong supernatural belief?

I'd like to know why Articulett thinks people who believe the Bible don't want to know if what we believe is true. The reason why we are Christians is because we know the Bible is true. I think its just as important  to be able to tell if you are right as it is to be able to tell if are wrong. Again we see the misconception of contrasting "faith" and "reason" as if they are in conflict. Who said that "faith" does not and cannot correspond with reality? Just believing something doesn't make it true. External evidence can and should be used to correct any errors in what we believe. Unfortunately, external evidence is not enough to get all information about reality. How can you completely trust you own reason and thought processes? Why should you? In all honesty, everyone knows what it's like to think something is true and then come to find out that it's not. To apply the kind of skepticism that people like Articulett and John Loftus claim we should level against Christianity, makes me question why aren't they skeptical of their own conclusions?

Believers are not even able to imagine what the world would look like or how it would be different if all gods were an illusion, but the non believer can ask themselves what would they expect if there was a real god-- and they could answer-- For example, a real god should have left some scientifically prescient information for it's favorite creatures. Or a benevolent god would stop suffering or refuse to allow it to exist and so forth. Praying to a real god (who wanted to be believed in) should bring different results than wishing on a star or praying to a jug of milk. Praying to the right god should bring different results than praying to the wrong god if there was a real "jealous god" who didn't want there to be "other gods before him". Why would a good being need to be worshiped anyhow? If there were a real heaven/hell test then how could a god be so cruel as not to give a clear rubric and equal access to "passing"? What would be the point of punishing anyone forever? Wouldn't it be better never to have existed? Why wouldn't he clear up conflicting beliefs and cruelties in the various texts people imagine he inspired? If souls were real, then we should be able to get real and ready information about any afterlife or where missing bodies are and so forth. People should be eager to die if they really believed they were going to "happily ever after", right? Why shouldn't NDE's produce data where we could learn more and devise better tests? How would a soul interact with a brain-- as it must-- since we know the brain is intimately involved with consciousness-- feelings, memory, thought, wants, urges, perception, belief, etc. We should have some evidence-- something so that souls were distinguishable from an illusion of the brain. Why aren't true believers devising such tests? Are they afraid they will fail? Think of how rich and famous they'd be if they'd succeed? And the evidence should help us gain more knowledge... our tests should work every time the way X-rays work every time-- it shouldn't need excuses-- if souls are real. How can people claim to know about such things when science cannot even substantiate their existence? At what point do serious humans stop believing in illusions because they want them to be true? When you are on the right track, more information is discovered (see DNA)-- but when you are on the wrong track, you get mired in semantic games like Kalam.

I think the whole discussion on the nature of the soul is indeed interesting. Even more interesting is that Articulett seems to have forgotten that at the beginning and in the midst of the 20th Century, DNA was discussed much the same way as Articulett has discussed the soul. There were serious scientists who laughed at the concept of DNA and proposed structure. Just like more evidence surfaced and validated and solidified what we know of DNA, I am sure we will learn more about the human soul. There is already evidence that the mind and brain are not the same thing and we are only beginning to understand that. On top of that we are only beginning to coin the language we need to discuss such concepts. We are still trying to understand ourselves.

Sometimes it takes a long time to find out if a perception is mistaken. I find it amazing that Articulett does not seem to know that everyone starts out as an unbeliever.We know what it is like to not know there is a God. Becoming a believer means having a change in mind. This mean you thought one thing and now you think something else. There must be a difference. Do you really think that people just wake up one day and say, "I think I'll believe that Jesus rose from the dead"? Nope. Most believers I know have reason why they believe God. Just because they are not scientific or something someone else will accept it was good enough for the believer to accept. All of this - the prayers and trust in God - comes from having a relationship with God himself. I think everyone agrees that "we know the brain is intimately involved with consciousness-- feelings, memory, thought, wants, urges, perception, belief" - it's not the complete picture. The brain might be just as much involved in what makes you you as computer hardware is in making a PC Windows-based or Linux-based. More study is definitely needed.

If I'm wrong about something, then the evidence should correct my misperception. Science has built in error correcting mechanisms. With supernatural beliefs, all you have is word games and the mental manipulations of believers-- the same sorts of arguments cults use-- known logical fallacies.... confirmation bias. There is no means of correcting any errors-- you are told that it's good to believe without or despite evidence-- or that it's a "mystery" and science can't test the "supernatural" or that it's "arrogant" to think you can know the mind of god. A complete lack of evidence can mean god is testing your faith-- ha! So many mind games.

Just because something is beyond natural perception does not mean it can't be real. As far as we can tell there is no reason at all to think that there is not more than what we can scientifically examine. Take the sense of sight for example. Ever stop to think that we know live in a 3D (in Spatial) reality and most people even think we see in 3D? We know (from science) we don't. You can't project a 3D image on 2D surface (our retinas). Our minds fills in the missing information using information from both eyes. Also given that current theories in Physics points to even more dimensions than that, I'd say that our abilities to perceive all there is of reality is very much lacking. I think Articulett is special pleading - a more accurate statement would be:  "There is a lack of evidence of the God that I am willing to accept." It's not right to say that there is a complete lack of evidence (but of course what atheism is truly asserting is that there is no evidence). It pays to remember what Jesus said regarding this at the end of His parable of Lazarus and the rich man

    ²⁹ “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
   ³⁰ “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

   ³¹ “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”  - Luke 16:29-31

If one wants to believe as many true things as possible and as few false things as possible, then I'd suggest rejecting the supernatural-- I trust that if something is real and can be understood, the evidence will accumulate. All humans have a vested interest in what is real. The skeptic is always right whenever we are able to test these claims. Just like the skeptic will be right on 12-21-2012 when some believers in the supernatural think the world will end. The skeptic has always been right when it comes to Jesus returning or the world ending or anything else we can test (see James Randi's million dollar challenge). The skeptic is always right when we subject prayer or psychics or souls to scientific testing.

If you can't prove something is false then it is much more honest to say that you don't accept evidence in its favor. The truth is that God must reveal Himself in order to know Him. The skeptic may be right until it becomes obvious that they are wrong. The skeptic cannot know if he/she is right about Jesus returning until either they die or He does return. Too late then. The comment raised in the comments is important to think about. Jesus' return is too late to find out you was wrong. There is nothing wrong with scientific testing. The thing is that the stakes are too high if you reject Christ. It's far worse to be wrong about Jesus than it is to be wrong about psychics and souls. The good news is that God wants us all to know Him.

¹ Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. ² This is what the ancients were commended for.
 ³ By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
 ⁴ By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.
 ⁵ By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. ⁶ And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.- Hebrews 11:1-6

Debunking Christianity: "If I Am Wrong...I Want to Know"